Five Poems by Bruce Bond

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Found in Willow Springs 84

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THE LOST LANGUAGE #11

 

If you are searching for a friend online,

an insomniac to break the bread

of misery and silence, look no farther.

Trust me, says anonymous, the voice

in rivers after dark is no illusion.

It is an angel. And who can resist.

If I am broken just enough, I fly.

I suspend my physical heart, alive,

among the saints and champion banners.

I never met an angel, but I saw one

once in a painting, in one hand poppies,

the other a harp, and though it made no music,

it seemed so finely strung in the fire

of a child's hair, it nearly played itself.

 

NARCISSUS IN THE UNDERWORLD #9

 

It's not all bad. Hell has its comforts,

threnodies, charms in the shapes of cups.

But imagine what it takes to make

a life's work there, with only your powers

of invention to sustain you. Think of

the focus it takes to complete the journey.

I do not envy a creator that devoted,

divided, but here I am, on the edge

of the river. A lighter craft will carry you,

says the boatman, because I am that light.

I take his reasoning on faith. After all,

his Italian is so lovely, and the world so

full of weightless things, here a boat,

there a fly drinking from the open eye.

 

NARCISSUS IN THE UNDERWORLD #26

 

The creak of boats in swells of the harbor

sounds a warning like hinges of a forest

or failed estate. So difficult to get

news from news, history from history,

by which I mean writing and the written

off. The auguries of smoke and wind

blow dust from the glass of eyes that sting.

Earth keeps spinning the storm surge north,

and mountains sink, and refugees come,

and foreign words for home in the distance.

When a shoreline breaks, it breaks open,

and in flow the pixels too small to see,

stars of neither cruelty nor grace, but

a sorrow so deep its name has not arrived.

 

NARCISSUS IN THE UNDERWORLD #28

 

When a high wind tears down the power

and it's you and me and the emptiness

that gives us license to move, we do not move.

We gather our cats in the pantry, we listen,

we hear in heaven the enormous sigh

of an iron lung exhaling, the storm eye

passing, the terrible burden coming to rest.

One part of every wind is trembling.

The other the stillness the trembling moves aside.

The future, as we know it, is never true.

Never false. It is here in the quiet turn

of every breath, the little death a singer breathes.

One part of each departure is a mirror,

the other the wall to which a mirror turns.

 

NARCISSUS IN THE UNDERWORLD #29

 

Panoptes, the god with a hundred eyes,

became a captive of the prison that bore

his name, the circle with guards in the center

and inmates on all sides who saw no one.

All that dark out there, and the hundred

fears to take a hundred points of view.

Why else does a man grow so many.

Misery, we know, is too much company.

Or too little. No one sees you, or no

one appears. When I see a prisoner in hell,

I see those eyes. I see a flock of grackles.

They break into the shrapnel of applause.

And then, nothing. I am alone. Just me

and a hundred sorrows. None of them mine.

 

 

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Dear Willow Springs Magazine readers and contributors,

 

Thank you so much for visiting our site. We're busy as spiders over here! Our website’s move from an old URL to a new is still underway. You might notice that some of our content is missing, and some content has textual and/or formatting errors. We want to assure you we are working out all kinks, and all the content from the old website will eventually be uploaded to the new website, along with new content from future contributors.

Thank you all so much for your loyalty and patience, the staff at WSM greatly appreciates you.

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Issue 84 Poet Darren Demaree’s New Book of Poetry

a child walks in the dark cover (front)
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This December (2021), Darren C. Demaree's sixth book of poetry A Child Walks in the Dark will be published by Harbor Editions! For those who have not had the pleasure of reading one of his poems, or those who just love to read his works, "If There Is a River, #40 & #41" published in Issue 84 of Willow Springs Magazine has been added below. Enjoy!

 

If There is a River

#40

the affection of saints is the same as the affection of the deer in your yard it's lovely when they're in your yard but in the middle of the road in the middle of the day the deer the saint the deer the saint the deer the saint they have no place amidst our thickening i do like to see either either of them with an apple there just aren't enough apple trees in the middle of this city

#41

the whispers have no place for the innocent the tideless water is worthless another start is a remedy the same way a mountain is a tunnel

 

“That the Deer Tick is The Pilot Light of the Universe” and “4 AM” by Michael McGriff

85

Found in Willow Springs 85

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"THAT THE DEER TICK IS THE PILOT LIGHT OF THE UNIVERSE"

for Tim Johnson

 

Or let me be
reborn as that small mountain
of broken glass
you mistook for a snowdrift
in the Salvation Army's parking lot.

 

Or as the billboard
on the edge of Deronville, Alabama,
that since 1983 has announced
The Future Home of the World's
Largest Rocking Chair.

 

The defense offers this, your honor:
I was born in 1968 in Rockford, Illinois,
and followed the tip of God's cigarette
until I ended up in Oregon,
so let me come to in the ditch
with leaves plastered to my face,
but this time let me start out
all synced-up with the knowledge
of the body's irrelevance.

 

There's a cistern that says what I say
just seconds before I start to say it.
The gray threads I mistook for clouds
answer back, pretending I'm not even here.
They're not even clouds. And they're not
not the stringy guts pulled from an animal
with the head of the future
and the body of the past.

 

I'd be just fine coming back
as all the money lost salting
the clouds of West Texas.

 

And I'm more than happy
to watch myself again
earn an entry in The Horses' Big Book
of Human Disappointments.

 

My arms are too long.
I'm missing 2 ½ ribs
and my heart's a torn
grocery sack in the rain.

 

Let's say I return as the knife
and you come back as the needle
and the moon
shaking its head
comes back as the thread.

 

When I plunge the blade of an oar
into green water I am reborn,
and that should be enough.

 

When I float my name out in a paper boat.
When I unscrew the stars from their sockets
or hear coffee percolate above the fire.
That, too, should be enough.

 

But instead I feel the deer tick
move deeper into me
and complain about the neighborhood.
This used to be such a great place.
Now, just look at it. Look at what it's become.

 

"4 AM"

 

I am more
than a little tired
of this parable
where I walk
old roads
careful of snakes
stretched across
warm August gravel,
where the moon finds
a perfect copy of me
in the fields
and surrounds him
with something
akin to fire.
I greet him only
at a distance.
We're suspicious
as new neighbors.
He raises a hand
to greet me
as I raise mine.
No, he's attaching
a clothespin to a line,
or stringing lights
among the trees.
Or he's choosing
a name to erase
from the monument
this hour has become.
As my tongue becomes
a fish packed in salt
and hung from a low star
to sing until it dries.

Issue 85: Michael McGriff

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About Michael McGriff

Michael McGriff is the author of several books, most recently the poetry collections Early Hour (Copper Canyon Press, 2017) and Black Postcards (Willow Springs Books, 2017). A new edition of his co-authored story collection (with J.M. Tyree), Our Secret Life in the Movies, has just been released from Deep Vellum. His work has appeared in The New York Times, Poetry London, The Believer, American Poetry Review, and on PBS NewsHour. He teaches creative writing at the University of Idaho, and his work can be explored online here [https://www.npr.org/2014/11/02/360859192/our-secret-life-watching-the-quirky-criterion-classics] and here [michaelmcgriff.com].

Author photo credit: Marcus Jackson

A Profile of the Author

Notes on “That the Deer Tick Is the Pilot Light of the Universe” and “4 AM”

I think of “4 A.M.” as I do much of my work—it’s a kind of lovechild between Yannis Ritsos, Tomas Tranströmer, and Frank Stanford. In that power trio I continue to find a model for how to write about the intersection of solitude, inwardness, and a kind of metaphysical landscape. Description and image-making are what electrify poetry for me, especially when those elements become proxies for the inner life of the writer, no matter how opaque or obvious such a life may be. “That the Deer Tick Is the Pilot Light of the Universe” is dedicated to my friend, the unofficial arts mayor of Marfa, TX, Tim Johnson. This isn’t a private poem, but its quick associations and leaping motions are meant to reflect what I admire in Tim’s imagination and artmaking. All my poems carry the DNA of other artists; those who inspire me the most are friends who defiantly live and breathe art and human subjectivity in a world that increasingly values Internet fame and group-think.

 

Music, Food, Booze, Tattoos, Kittens, etc.

Records? Come over some time and we’ll slide the KEFs out from the wall, warm up the tubes, and listen to all the new pressings from the Neil Young Archives.

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Issue 81: J. Stilwell Powers

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About J. Stilwell Powers

J. STILLWELL POWERS was born and raised in Western Massachusetts. A graduate of Greenfield Community College, he went on to earn his B.A. in English from Amherst College, and his MFA in fiction from the University of Oregon. His story “Salvage” won the 2017 Dogwood Prize in Fiction, and appeared in Dogwood 16. He lives with his wife and their two black cats in Eugene, Oregon.

A Profile of the Author

Notes on “Saturday Night Special”

I started writing “Saturday Night Special” after the loss of a childhood friend to a heroin overdose. At the time, I was still working toward my MFA, living a pretty cushy life in Oregon—teaching, writing, reading, and taking lots of naps. His passing brought me back to a time and place in my life that was less pleasant, to rural New England, where I was born and raised, and where I struggled with my own addiction. I’ve written a lot of terrible stories about addiction. As I’ve grown as a writer, I’ve stopped writing fiction that approaches the subject directly, primarily because I find a consciousness consumed by the desire to blot itself out rather limiting. So with this story, I felt the need to write toward the subject, but knew from experience the pitfalls of taking it up directly. I found an angle that worked in Preston’s consciousness, which placed addiction in the periphery and brought other (perhaps more interesting) subjects to the forefront.

One danger I’ve found in writing stories about kids (and dogs) is slipping into sentimentality. I overwrote the first drafts of this story, spending too much time in Preston’s head as he tried to make sense of his circumstances. This was helpful in getting to the heart of the story, but as I looked back at these moments in revision, they felt cheap. Beyond this, I’m not sure kids Preston’s age can actually make sense of the world, especially a world like the one he comes from, which is a piece of what the story is driving at. I spent a great deal of time in revision asking myself if the emotion I was attempting to conjure was earned. I found a similar danger in the use of irony with regard to his perspective. There is so much room to see around a child’s consciousness, which is great fun to write, but can also feel like the character is being mocked. Though kids might be unable to make clear sense of the world, I suspect they know a lot more than we give them credit for. Finding the right balance between what Preston knows, what he thinks he knows but doesn’t, and what he doesn’t know took lots of fine-tuning.

Music, Food, Booze, Tattoos, Kittens, etc.

I haven’t had any booze or gotten a tattoo in a quite a while. My friend’s mom gave me my first tattoo. I was sixteen and paid her $25 to get my initials forever engraved on my forearm. I’m not sure why this seemed like a good idea, though I’m pretty sure there was booze involved. I’ve gotten a few tattoos since then. Some of them I like more than others, but the one I still love as much as the day I got it is a portrait of the fox from the cover of Breece D’J Pancake’s collected stories. In terms of music, I remember listening to John Prine, Sun Kil Moon, and The Felice Brothers around the time I wrote this story. The Rolling Stones are an institution. Recently, my wife has been on a serious kick with the Who, so I’ve been with her in that. She’s also has a deep love of Selena from her childhood in Texas, so I know all of the words to “Como la Flor”, even though I never meant to. About a year ago, we got two black cats. Luna and Lorca. I always thought myself a dog person, but I’ve grown quite fond of them. It’s easy to win a dog’s love. Cats are complex; they make you work for their affection. I don’t understand them, and my constant failure to win their hearts keeps me humble.

 

Issue 81 Cover shows Chris Bovey print of Spokane's famous garbage goat in teal and yellow with Willow Springs in decorative font.

“Saturday Night Special” by J. Stilwell Powers

Found in Willow Springs 81 Back to Author Profile PRESTON DASHED THROUGH THE GRASS toward the barn, which stood paper-gray in the fading light, the color of a hornet’s nest. Barking … Read more

Read More

“Saturday Night Special” by J. Stilwell Powers

Issue 81 Cover shows Chris Bovey print of Spokane's famous garbage goat in teal and yellow with Willow Springs in decorative font.

Found in Willow Springs 81

Back to Author Profile

PRESTON DASHED THROUGH THE GRASS toward the barn, which stood paper-gray in the fading light, the color of a hornet's nest. Barking echoed inside like rifle reports. "She ain't here," Uncle Eli said when Preston reached the door. "But don't worry. She'll slink home when the money runs out."

Preston's mom had been gone for six nights. One more would be an entire week, the longest he'd been without her. The night she left, she took Uncle Eli's cordless drill, his Skilsaw, and the 6,000-watt generator he used to power the barn. Uncle Eli was mad because he needed the generator for the show that night.

"I don't care," Preston said.

"That's good," Uncle Eli said. "Wouldn't change anything if you did."

Together, they crossed the meadow toward the truck parked in the driveway. The wind picked up, unruly in the open space, and lifted the tarp covering the front section of the house's roof. At night, Preston could hear the tarp snap in the wind, could feel the drafts reaching through the bedroom's cracked ceiling plaster. Uncle Eli planned to buy new shingles after the show. Or maybe he'd just pay someone to fix the roof-the payout would be good enough, he said.

Three coils of orange extension cord rested in the truck's bed. Uncle Eli told Preston to wait by the kitchen window. He took one of the coils inside, plugged it into the outlet by the sink, and threw the rest out the window.

They unraveled the cords over the grass. While he worked, Preston wondered how his mom had gotten away with the generator, the Skilsaw, and the cordless drill. He helped Uncle Eli move the gen­erator-he knew how heavy it was. And where would she sell it? When­ ever she sold things, she took them to the junk store in Prescott, but the man there only ever bought things his mom could carry-jewelry, cameras, video games, DVDs.

They hadn't gone to the junk store since the day before Uncle Eli drove Preston's mom to the hospital. That morning, she'd sold the television. It wouldn't matter, she said, since he'd be staying with Grandma. After the junk store, they walked to Singer's trailer in Wheeler Court. The air inside smelled like matches and rotting fruit. His mom gave Singer the television money, and Singer handed over her medicine. Preston watched Singer move in slow motion on the couch while his mom took her medicine in the bathroom. Singer was sicker than his mom. His ribs showed beneath his skin.

"Let's go," Uncle Eli yelled across the meadow, and he vanished into the barn.

Preston paused before going inside, and bit the back of his hand. The pain lingered, took his mind away from his mom. She'd come back, like Uncle Eli said, when the money ran out.

Uncle Eli plugged in the string of construction lights tacked to the barn's rafters, flooding the dusty interior of the barn with light. The dogs bayed in their pens. The tow chains around their necks rattled as they lifted square jaws toward the ceiling to catch the scent of November.

Preston made his way along the chicken wire gates, saying the dogs' names aloud as he passed. Loose Cannon, Southpaw, Trigger, Sister Savage, Medusa, Pretty Nickel, and Saturday Night Special. He paused before Saturday's pen, and stuck his hand through the gap in the twisted wire. Saturday leaned his head against Preston's hand.

In July, a few days before his mom came home from the hospital, Preston had learned he couldn't trust the other dogs the way he trusted Saturday. Uncle Eli was gone, and while Grandma napped in her recliner, he'd snuck out to the barn with a box of frosted flakes. He slipped through a gap in the barn's sideboards. Pen to pen, he let the dogs lick the cereal from his hand. All of them were happy to see him, except Pretty Nickel, who limped across the dirt floor and sat heavily in front of the gate. A rotten smell hung on her coat. Pretty Nickel sniffed the cereal in his hand, but did not take it. And as she slung her knotted head toward the ground, something glistened on her snout. In the dusk of the barn, Preston could barely see the blood-matted fur around the wound. He reached out and touched it. Pretty Nickel snarled, and as Preston pulled away, she bit the back­ side of his forearm, and jerked her head until his flesh gave.

Now, Preston had a purple scar below his elbow. The skin had been torn in the shape of an L, like a shirt caught on a nail, leaving muscle exposed beneath the flap of skin. He didn't mind the scar­ when kids at school asked about it, he said it came from a wolf he'd fought in the woods- but Grandma screamed when she found Uncle Eli in the bathroom, stitching the wound closed with a sewing needle and a length of dental floss. "His mom's going to kill you," Grandma said. But his mom just cried when she came home from the hospital. She apologized for being gone and kissed the wound.

Uncle Eli pushed Preston aside and opened Saturday's pen. He slid the canvas muzzle over the dog's snout and jerked him by the collar toward the pit at the rear of the barn. Saturday didn't need a muzzle. At night, Preston snuck out and brought him treats. Some­ times, he sat behind Saturday in the dirt and pulled him close. He'd rub his muscles, tight since Uncle Eli had start ed Saturday's keep­ running him three hours a day on the treadmill, strapping him to forty-five pound weights and driving him across the meadow, making him leap and hang from the tires strung to the barn's rafters.

"Put some weight on him," Uncle Eli said.

Preston grabbed the dog's collar and straddled him the way Uncle Eli had taught him, one leg on either side of Saturday's ribs, pressure at the knees. Uncle Eli had been teaching Preston how to handle the dogs since Pretty Nickel bit him. Saturday's ribs expanded and collapsed between Preston's legs. He tipped his head back and sniffed the underside of Preston's jaw through the muzzle. Preston leaned forward and rubbed his nose on Saturday's head, quickly, before Uncle Eli turned.

Uncle Eli flicked the syringe between his fingers. Down on one knee, he slapped Saturday's shoulder. The dog tensed below Preston's weight and tugged against his collar when Uncle Eli slid the needle in.

"Saturday's ready for the show, isn't he?" Preston said.

Uncle Eli forced the plunger, and when the chamber was empty, pulled the needle out. "Saturday was born for the show," he said.

Preston rubbed the dog's muscles the way Uncle Eli had shown him.

"Everything's got a purpose," Uncle Eli said. "You figure out your purpose, you've figured out something important. That's your mom's problem--no purpose."

"What's my purpose?" Preston asked.

"To stand on your own two feet," Uncle Eli said.

Uncle Eli had already shown Preston how to do this. At the start of the school year, one of the 6th grade boys had pulled Preston's pants down at the bus stop. The boy and his friends laughed because Preston wasn't wearing underwear. That afternoon Preston came home cry­ing. His mom hugged him, but Uncle Eli took him by the shoulder into the backyard. He turned Preston around and pushed him to the ground. "Get up," he said. And when Preston was standing, Uncle Eli pushed him again. "Quit crying and get up." Uncle Eli pushed him over and over until Preston got up on his own and punched Uncle Eli in the stomach. "Good," Uncle Eli said and patted Preston on the shoulder. "Don't let anyone push you around."

Uncle Eli pulled Saturday by the collar toward his pen. He un­clipped the muzzle and shoved the dog inside with his boot. Sat­urday turned and sat, square chested in his pen. Saturday knew his purpose.

 

THE INSIDE OF GRANDMA'S HOUSE smelled like dog chow. Uncle Eli brewed the food in big saucepans, a blend of discount animal scraps, eggs, brown rice, carrots, fish oil, whey protein, and Red Cell Vitamin-Iron-Mineral supplement. Two saucepans stood on the range, the third on the wood stove with steam rising from the interior. The smell pawed at Preston's stomach. He poured himself a bowl of cereal and took a seat at the kitchen table.

In the living room, Grandma yelled at Uncle Eli. She was sick of hearing the dogs yapping in the barn, tired of people coming to her home to partake in sin.

"You want your roof fixed?" Uncle Eli said as he passed through the kitchen.

Preston's binder rested open on the table. He'd left it that way so anyone could see the stickers on the inside of the cover.

"Look," he said to Uncle Eli.

Mrs. Karas had given Preston the binder at the beginning of the school year, and told him to keep track of his homework. He'd lost it too many times. Now, each time he handed in his worksheet, she put a sticker inside the binder's front cover.

"I get a prize when I earn thirty," he said.

"That's good, pal," Uncle Eli said, opening the back door. "Work and you get paid."

"Can I come to the show?" Preston asked.

Uncle Eli had promised Preston he could come to the show when he was twelve years old, which was longer than Preston wanted to wait. Before closing the door, Uncle Eli said, "You're in charge of the house tonight. Stay inside and look after your grandma."

Preston took his homework and bowl of cereal into the living room. Grandma sat in her recliner, watching a man praise Jesus on the television.

His homework was about planets and stars and why everything moved through space the way it did. That afternoon in school, he'd tried to focus as Mrs. Karas stood at the front of class, pointing at a diagram of the solar system with a yardstick, but he couldn't stop thinking about  his mom. Sometimes he imagined her at  the  front of class, wearing Mrs. Karas's dress, with Mrs. Karas's haircut and round glasses. Mrs. Karas had warm brown eyes. At school, he'd wanted to tell her that his mom was missing, but he was afraid of what she'd think.

"Grandma?" Preston said, leaning into the couch cushions. "Why does the earth move around the sun?"

She squinted at the television. Grandma saw things Preston couldn't see. Angels and miracles. Her prayers had power, she told Preston, because she was a true believer.

"Grandma?" Preston said again.

"What are you asking me?" Grandma said. "Why does the earth move around the sun?"

"Gravity," Grandma said. Preston leaned forward and wrote gravity in the blank. Grandma pointed at the television screen, as the preacher paced to the far side of the empty stage.

"Like God's love," Grandma said. "Holds everything together."

Preston looked back at his worksheet, but he didn't want to think about things he couldn't see. He didn't like to think about the earth spinning through empty space. He didn't like to think about God because God made things happen, even though you couldn't see Him.

"Uncle Eli says my mom has no purpose," Preston said.

"You keep asking God to show her mercy," Grandma said. “God’s love triumphs."

Grandma coughed into the crook of her arm, a cough like rocks colliding inside her chest. Preston pushed himself up and darted into the kitchen. He pulled a chair from the kitchen table to the sink. As he began filling a glass of water, a white Cadillac pulled into the driveway.

In the floodlight, Preston saw the blue and yellow Pennsylvania license plate. His heart rose for a moment. God's love triumphs. He ran the water to his grandma. She drank, and coughed some more into her hankie before tucking it back into the pouch on the recliner's arm.

The knock on the door rattled the windowpanes. Preston ran and pulled the door open. A man in a cowboy hat and leather boots stood in the porch light. His white T-shirt, tucked into blue jeans, was so clean it glowed against the dark. At his waist, the porch light splintered against the metal of a holstered pistol.

In the living room, the recliner's foot rest retracted and clicked into place. Preston heard Grandma grunt under her breath.

"No need to get up, ma'am." The man leaned inside and looked toward the living room. "I'm looking for Eli Dumphy."

"He's in the barn," Preston said. "I'll take you."

"Don't you leave this house," Grandma shouted as Preston closed the door and followed the man to his car. The inside smelled like cigarettes and air freshener, a blend that reminded Preston of the apartment in town where they lived before his mom went to the hospital. In the back seat, a dog sniffed at the gaps in the wire kennel. Preston pointed toward the barn. The Cadillac's engine growled when the man turned the key, and the frame bounced over divots in the meadow.

"What's your dog's name?" Preston asked. "She doesn't have one," the man said. "Why not?" Preston said.

The man glanced at Preston, dark-eyed beneath the brim of his hat. In the light from the dashboard his face looked knotted, like an old piece of hardwood.

Uncle Eli stood in front of the barn with a cigarette burning. The man parked, and the driver's side door tripped the dome light when the man opened it. Preston looked over the seat at the kennel. The dog inside licked her paws, her face and chest spangled with pale scars.

All of Uncle Eli's dogs had names.

The man opened the back door and leaned in. "Don't tempt her," he said.

Preston stepped out and stood beside Uncle Eli. The man's dog tugged at his arm as he led her toward the barn. She stopped to sniff at the meadow grass, but he wrenched her inside. Uncle Eli's dogs erupted in their pens.

"Where do you want her?" the man said.

"There's an empty pen in back," Uncle Eli shouted over the barking. After the dog was in her pen, Uncle Eli and the man counted money on the workbench in the rear of the barn. Two big stacks of bills and two bottles of beer rested on the surface. Uncle Eli kept his pistol beside the money, long and black with a wooden handle. The man kept his in the holster at his waist.

"Is that the money for the roof?" Preston said.

"Not if I can help it," the man in cowboy boots said. He laughed, patted Uncle Eli on the shoulder.

"Go on inside and finish your homework," Uncle Eli said.

Preston stomped his foot. He'd helped Uncle Eli with Saturday's keep, cleaned pens, hauled buckets of chow. Uncle Eli slid a five dollar bill from the bench and handed it to Preston.

"For helping out," Uncle Eli said. "Go on now."

 

WITHIN AN HOUR, eight more cars, five trucks, and four motor­ cycles had parked in the meadow. From the kitchen, Preston watched shadows pass through the dark to the barn's door. He rubbed the five dollar bill between his fingers. He knew better than to go back to the barn. Uncle Eli meant what he said.

Preston imagined Saturday pacing in his pen, getting ready. If Preston were there, he would whisper into Saturday's ear, tell him he could run faster and pull more weight than any dog. Tomorrow, he'd buy Saturday a treat with the money, a prize for his work.

In the living room, the footrest of Grandma's chair clicked into place. "Come help your grandma," she said.

Preston gripped her free hand with both of his, and leaned back with all his weight until she was upright. He handed over her cane and lifted the oxygen tank. She put her hand on his shoulder, distrib­uting her weight between his shoulder and the cane. Up the stairs, she took shallow breaths and paused often. Preston paused with her, leaning against the rail to relieve the weight of the tank.

At the top of the stairs, Grandma sighed, then slid her hand along the wall the rest of the way to her bedroom. The walls were covered in faded floral paper. Above her bed hung a framed picture of Jesus staring toward some light. The bed creaked as she lowered herself, and Preston waited until she was settled to place her oxygen tank beside her. He pulled the blanket over her body.

"Pray with me," she said.

Preston took her hand. He wished he could crawl into the bed beside her, but her body left no room on the twin mattress. He closed his eyes, the way she'd taught him, and heard the breath rattle in her lungs. He didn't know what God looked like, or where God lived, so he imagined the earth swinging around the sun, tethered by God's love. Grandma thanked God for giving her another day to serve Him. She prayed for protection. The sin surrounding this house, she said, was more than she could handle. Have mercy upon her children for their sins, she prayed. And bless Preston with the wisdom to choose God's love. Amen.

"You leave your uncle alone tonight," Grandma said.

Preston said goodnight and took himself to the bathroom. Each night since his mom had come home from the hospital, she made him shower and brush his teeth before bed, and he'd done both each night since she'd been gone again. When she came home, he'd tell her that. He stepped onto the scale, and the dial spun to sixty-five pounds. Saturday weighed sixty-nine. Preston looked into the mirror. He flexed the muscles in his arms before getting into the shower.

In the bedroom, his mom's clothes were still in the duffel bag by the closet door. He buried his face in the fabric. Wherever she was, she didn't have any clean clothes. He pictured her in the woods, sleeping on a bed of leaves.

Downstairs, he flipped through the channels twice before turning the television off. He went to the window, pulled the curtain aside, and looked out at the slats of light shining through the breaks in the barn's rough-cut siding.

 

PRESTON WOKE ON THE COUCH, unsure of how long he'd slept. Something moved through the room. He lay still, held his breath. He could smell cigarettes and hairspray on the cold air moving through the front door. Moonlight spilled through the window, pooled on the carpeted floor. He rubbed his eyes and saw the shadow, leaned in behind the television. He could hear the fidgeting of fingers working the cords.

"Momma?" Preston said.

Her shadow uncoiled, and Preston turned the television on, saw his mom in the blue light with her arms wrapped around her torso.

"Sweet Jesus," she said. "You scared me."

Her eyes darted, lingered in the room's empty spaces before settling on Preston. She came toward him, in slow motion, hands out the way people in television churches reached toward the ceiling. Once she lowered herself onto the couch, he pulled his legs in against hers. He held her as she moved her fingers through his hair.

The burnt smell of her hands startled him. He wanted to call out to Grandma, but knew he might scare his mom away if he did.

"Are you home now?" Preston said. "Go back to sleep," she said.

Preston pushed himself up and grabbed his binder from the kitchen table. When he returned, his mom had her head in her hands. He opened the binder and slid it onto her lap. He pointed to the stickers. "How wonderful," his mom said. She closed the  binder, grabbed the blanket from the back of Grandma's recliner, and spread it over him. She brushed his hair back from his forehead and kissed him with dry lips. Her fever was back.

"Do you know why the earth moves around the sun?" Preston said.

"I don't, baby," she said.

"Gravity," Preston said. "It's like when you have a purpose, or when you love something."

He'd gotten it wrong, he knew. He fumbled for the words, tried to say it again.

"It's not always so simple," his mom said.

She pulled the television's plug from the wall. With her arms hugging the wood-paneled sides, she struggled toward the kitchen door. Preston followed. When he reached the kitchen, he flipped on the light.

"Go back to sleep, Preston," she said through her teeth. She squinted and sighed. The weight of the television pulled her forward. "I'll be home in the morning."

Preston held out the five dollar bill Uncle Eli had given him. His mom paused, staring at the bill in his hand.  Her lip trembled. "Put it in my pocket," she said.

From the porch, Preston watched the headlights of a car recede down the driveway. He was supposed to be in charge of the house, but he couldn't stop her from leaving. Uncle Eli would yell at him for letting her get away. The frost bit at his bare feet as he ran toward the barn. The snarling and baying of dogs met him before he reached the door. From the outside, the dogs sounded wild in a way he'd never heard. The door was locked, so he bolted to the gap in the back.

Inside, the air smelled of piss and metal, hissed with bright light. Men crowded the pit, leaned forward shouting, waving bottles, blow­ing smoke into the air. In the pens along the wall, the dogs paced, panted with tongues unfurled over teeth. They reared against the chicken wire.

On all fours, Preston edged around jean-clad legs and dirty work boots. When he reached the plywood wall of the pit, he pulled himself up. Inside, Uncle Eli stood with the man in the cowboy hat, both forward-bent and shouting. At their feet, the dogs thrashed. The air around them shivered. Preston felt burning in his fingernails, tasted dirt. He couldn't tell where one dog ended and the other began. Just a bloody mess of sinew and teeth, with a sound pouring out like chainsaws and sirens.

 

BEFORE THE SUN BROKE THE HILLS, the growl of motor­ cycle engines pulled Preston upright. He left the couch, and watched through the living room window as men staggered through the meadow, dropped into their cars, and drove away.

The man in the cowboy hat stepped from the barn, carrying his dog. Its head hung limp over his arm. He put it in the trunk of his car and slammed the lid. As the Cadillac rocked over the meadow, the barn's lights flickered and died. A moment later, Uncle Eli stepped into the moonlight, lit a cigarette, and started toward the house. Preston slipped back onto the couch and pulled the blanket over his head. When the front door scraped over the linoleum floor, he closed his eyes. Uncle Eli lurched through the room, whistling some tune Preston had heard before, but couldn't remember where. The smell of liquor and smoke followed Uncle Eli like a shadow. He paused in the center of the room. The whistling stopped. Preston peeked around the blanket. Uncle Eli's back was turned. A paper bag hung from his right hand, and his pistol was tucked into the waist of his pants. He was staring at the space where the television used to be.

When Uncle Eli closed his bedroom door, Preston crept through the kitchen. The cold rushed in when he eased open the door.
In the moonlight, the meadow was scarred by tire tracks.
He walked barefoot through the grass, wondering whether Saturday would be waiting for him, and found the barn door unlocked. The air inside felt thick, strange now with silence. He walked with his hands outstretched, feeling his way through the seamless dark. Eyes closed. Eyes open. It made no difference. He kept them shut, felt his way by the dampness of the dirt beneath his feet, by the breathing of sleeping dogs in their pens. He was careful not to wake them.

In front of Saturday's pen, he lowered himself to his knees, opened his eyes. He whispered the dog's name and saw nothing, so leaned in closer. He lifted his hand to the cage, but before his fin­gers reached the wire, warm breath brushed his fingertips. His hand snapped back. Before him, the darkness went on forever. There were things inside of it he could not see.

On the way back to the house, Preston edged along the criss­crossing tire tracks. The forest loomed on the far side of the meadow, empty as far back as the hills and farther. Morning light had smudged away a thin layer of night above the ridges, but overhead the stars were still bright. He paused, leaned back to stare into the sky. Nobody could see him here, nobody watched. He could feel it in his chest as he stood there, the force of the earth spinning away from the sun.

Online Exclusive: A Conversation with Patricia Goedicke

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Works in Willow Springs 32, 29, 26, and 18

August 20, 1998

Kendra Borgmann

A CONVERSATION WITH PATRICIA GOEDICKE

patty-goedicke

Photo Credit: Poets.org

PATRICIA GOEDICKE WROTE THIRTEEN BOOKS OF POETRY, including her final manuscript, The Baseball Field at Night, published by Lost Horse Press in 2008. Her numerous awards include a National Endowment for the Ans fellowship, a Pushcart Prize, and the William Carlos Williams Prize. Goedicke was an accomplished and passionate downhill skier and her poems frequently celebrate both physical movement and, quite literally, cerebral movement. In Invisible Horses, for instance, she set out to capture "what it feels like to think." Though her books often have a thematic focus, such as The Trail that Turns on Itself, in which she decided to include all the narcissistic poems she could, her books' themes were not always "preordained."

This combination of cohesion and a resistance to preordainment is reflected in her long and complex thoughts, revealed both in her poems and our interview. She is known for her extended lines and extended metaphors. Goedicke can be tangential, gracefully returning to the beginning, to her starting point, but always, in returning, defining it more clearly. Peter Schjeldahl described her in The New York Times as having "discipline and the nerves of a racing driver. . .with enough vigor to rattle teacups in the next county." The prepositional beginnings of her lines set up an expectation that is often fulfilled many lines later, after a multitude of associative meanings have been added. And yet her poetry remains grounded and memorable, rather than wandering into abstraction. Patricia's poems "are a joy to read, and to reread. And reread," Jonathan Holden wrote. Erica Jong wrote that she is "a poet to read in silence, to read out loud, to reread and to learn from."

The following interview took place in the summer of 1998, at Goedicke's home in Missoula near the University of Montana campus, where she taught for 25 years. One year later, As Earth Begins to End was published by Copper Canyon Press and was declared by the American Library Association to be one of the top ten books of 2000. In 2006, at the age of 75, Patricia Goedicke died from pneumonia related to cancer. Among her notes regarding this interview, she wrote, "Please be sure to speak of my utter joy," and in fact her ruminations on death and deterioration are always balanced by an almost giddy celebration of pleasure and its importance, which she invites readers to share.

 

KENDRA BORGMANN

How has your relationship to poetry changed over the fifty years you've been writing?

PATRICIA GOEDICKE

I suppose the changes are much the usual. Nearly every one of my generation started off much more formally than we wound up. I wound up with more spaces in my mind, and spaces and indentations and movement over the page than I used to have, and I like that. At the same time I think I learned—I hope I've learned—to wander more, to leap more, and I don't really mean to leap only in the Robert Bly sense. I am able to write bigger poems now. At the same time, every time I start going in one direction I very soon decide I've got to change. Right now I'm thinking I must set formal limits. I don't mean in the sense of sonnets or villanelles or anything like that. But I must stretch out within rules because I feel I've become a little too loose, and I want to give myself more pressure, more emphasis on vocabulary, on language again. I've wanted to cover wide landscapes and I forget—I'm constantly telling my students this—that the best way to do that is to concentrate on the particular word. The word produces the landscapes of poetry, deepens them, gives them a perspective and a breadth and height and dimension that the landscapes don't have unless the words are tended to. I don't mean that William Carlos Williams doesn't have that. He goes for the moment, the gesture of the moment, and he says things with a lapidary skill from time to time in the midst of this free flow of change and attention. And I hope I can do that. But at the same time I want to slow things down a little. And I don't know whether that's not coming back a little bit to the beginning, when I wrote with great difficulty and it seemed to me in narrower spaces.

I know myself about as little as anyone does, so I can't really comment on my progress or lack of progress. I'm aware that my poetry has changed a lot, getting steadily, perhaps more abstract, more theme­ oriented. The last book I wrote, Invisible Horses, had a deliberately thematic orientation. I knew I was going to write a book about what it feels like to think. I did a great deal of research into microbiology and neurophysiology. I read enormously, but at the same time my father was a neurologist as well as a psychiatrist and I have always been aware of the connection between the body and the word, the body and the mind, feelings and ideas. That's been a constant in my attention. This was just a more microscopic emphasis on it.

My other books are thematically oriented but they weren't preordained. I didn't decide ahead of time except for one other, The Trail that Turns on Itself, in which I decided I was going to talk about narcissism, and chose all the narcissistic poems I could. And I had plenty of them, believe me, which produced a very gloomy book because I wasn't writing just self-absorbed, bitter, self-hating poems. Not that all narcissists hate themselves, but it's a function of that practice, I believe, and living any kind of a real life. Anyway, that book was a result of selection. I wasn't writing toward something, as was the case with Invisible Horses or the new book, As Earth Begins to End. A lot of these new poems have to do with earth in the sense of the earth of our minds, the mind considered as a complex of chemistry and biology and meditation, and the deterioration of the mind and the deterioration of the body that happens in age, the age of the individual organism, the age of plant, animal, human being, human couple in this case, and the whole world. We are a dying organism, the planet is, the earth we inhabit. On the other hand we are also an expanding organism. There's an attempt in my book to come to grips with that on various levels. Anyway, if these things are changes—the two most recent books, the last one and the one I'm projecting—they are a kind of outgrowth of concerns that have occupied me from the very beginning. I began by speaking of formal changes but there's some connection between formal and content—related changes too.

BORGMANN

When you're writing a poem, do you write a couplet, then make a space and write the next one?

GOEDICKE

Lots of times I do, but very often also I will break things into couplets and one-liners and tercets, too, because I'm very much aware of space. And enjambments, as my students will tell you, are terribly important to me. I think that's where the rhythm and music of poetry come from. And there is a silence that surrounds an image, just as negative space surrounds a sculpture. It's a silence in music which lends itself to a greater emphasis when you come to a single line suspended in space or in silence. Which is what happens to the single word, say, at the end of a line, and then the single word or phrase at the beginning of the next line; the kind of exchange of balance that goes on between those two lines is important to me.

An extension of that is the indentational poem I write more frequently now. The couplets, I think, were an early expression of the same feeling. It's not that I want to isolate things as much as give emphasis to different images and ideas in a dramatic flow. One of my beliefs is that a poem has got to move you, really move you in the old Emily Dickinson sense—if, when I read a poem, I feel the hairs on the back of the neck stand on end, then I know it's a poem. That's the kind of movement I believe a poem has to have; otherwise, it's a kind of wonderful entertainment, the difference between some Shakespeare and King Lear or Hamlet.

The aim is to control the presentation of the images and the sound so that the audience is moved, the readers feel what you want them to feel. And that's where the couplets come from, and where the line breaks come from, and where even the indentations come from. Because the movement is a matter of directing the attention visually, as well as verbally, as well as aurally, as well as kinetically. The breaking of lines and of spaces is what gets you in the gut as you read it or see it, as you feel it. I really believe what's been said somewhere, that indentations work as a kind of subordination, not only semantically but aurally and dramatically. It's a matter of graphics as well as aural. It never exists just on the page or in the head. It's a combination, I think, nowadays, in our age. Poetry used to only exist in the ear but now we have both.

BORGMANN

I've heard it said that the most interesting poetry today is being written by women. Do you think that's true?

GOEDICKE

I don't believe in generalizations, but I would say there are a lot of reasons it could be true. I don't want to say that it is true because I think there are men who more and more nowadays develop a feminine side. But I think that women are more aware of their bodies and therefore more aware of the darker, unconscious sides of life than men are. Also, women have lived for so long—have spent their lives—literately and intellectually adjusting themselves to the animus of the male, that it's easier for them to develop the intellectual side, the animus side, at the same time they're encouraging the feminine side, the anima side, and I think the best poetry is always a combination of yin and yang.

The movement of feminism has helped women to come to the fore and be less afraid of speaking of these things. They are able to be more whole about it than men are. For instance, women's erotic poetry, the poetry of love and passion in women tends to be much more powerful and profound than masculine poetry, where there is so much objectification that you can only identify with it on one level. Whereas with women very frequently you will have many different sides of the relationship, of the feeling of each of the individuals involved.

I was fascinated by a remark made in a New York Times book review recently, regarding Jonathan Lear's book, Open Minded, something about essays on the logic of the soul, whose lynchpin, according to the reviewer, is an essay in which Lear's trying to rehabilitate Freud from some of the wear and tear that he has suffered in the middle of this century—and he suggests that Freud, or rather psychoanalysis, is important not only for our individual freedom but for democracy. That's a remark that I couldn't agree with more, because it has co do with understanding. He says that the danger in a democracy is people going around not knowing themselves. If we believe that everything we do is for the good, and our rational selves are triumphing, then we are perfectly susceptible to the dark side, which is always lurking. If we don't realize that rationalizations not only seem to avoid the dark side but also tend to express it without our knowing it, we're not going to get anywhere when we try to do things together. I don't think he adds that. I do.

And I think that women's insistence on the particulars of emotional and intellectual context is not only what produces the famous networking—which is the ideal vision of what a democracy should be, where things are done by consensus and informed discussion—but also makes for an illumination of both the dark and light sides of human behavior. Which is what poetry does. Which is what the image does. The reason humor is so important in poetry, the pun is so important, is because no great image in poetry ever exists on the page. It has all dimensions to it, all the layerings of dark and light, and it's both smart and dumb, both enlightened and endarkened, and it moves us because of that.

If poetry does that it is always interesting to me, and interesting and moving to everyone, I think. And perhaps it is true, nowadays, for whatever reason, that it's easier for women poets to do that. But I know some men poets who can. I think right now off the top of my head of Forrest Gander, or the critic Cal Bedient whose first book came out of Wesleyan last year; Edward Kleinschmidt has poetry like that; I think Jim Tate does coo.

BORGMANN

Maybe I'm generalizing, but it tends to be women who write poems from the first person, whereas many male poets, I don't know if they're trying to make it more universal, but it seems they don't use "I"—

GOEDICKE

Perhaps it's easier. Women stand on their own high heels or bare feet and want to speak to the world as "I" see it. Perhaps men in business have to speak corporate speak more than they speak "I" speak. In fact, that's one of the things you learn as you go out and join the world of business and corporate procedures. As a woman at least, I have had to learn—in fact I never learned it successfully—I have co go into bureaucratese. I mustn't say in a meeting, "Well, I hate that idea!" I have to touch it in the passive voice and preferably without my "I" being visible or heard. But as I say that I'm hearing, "What is the difference between corporate speak and networking?" There is a very particular difference. I think the corporate is aiming to make a monolithic, single-voiced statement: what "we" will say. Whereas the kind of statement or world view or cultural image of the soul in this century—again going back to the review of Lear's book—would be many voices heard, individually speaking, and joining hands as they speak. And the voice of the minority is heard as well as the voice of the majority. One of my touchstones is Octavio Paz's book of essays The Other Voice, where he speaks for poetry as the other voice, the voice of the personal, the voice of the individual, the voice of the minority, the voice of the unconscious which is a minority in our world, because in order to be civilized, we have to suppress some of our rampant, instinctual behavior. But we mustn't suppress it entirely or we'll be waylaid and ambushed by it. That's one of the ways poetry works most importantly to me.

BORGMANN

What are some of your favorite essays about writing? Is it better to read about writing or read the writing itself?

GOEDICKE

Both, both, both, both. Sometimes, when I read a really wonderful poet criticizing another poet, I learn so much, because I get somebody else's eyes on it. When I read Helen Vendler or Seamus Heaney's marvelous appraisals of other poets, or when I read Randall Jarrell or Cal Bedient—and there are many others critics I'm slighting—that does help me a lot. Jonathan Holden is very interesting on poetry.

Donald Hall has written some brilliant things. There's one essay of his in Claims for Poetry, in which he posits a dark wood with a fire in the center of it, and around this fire are dancing the three archetypal figures of poetry. One is called Goatfoot, the other is called Twinbird, the third is called Milktongue. Goatfoot is prancing [Goedicke gets up and prances, saying, "Oh I can't do it. .. maybe... yes I can."] prancing around the fire in the iambic tromp; Goatfoot is rhythm and that powerful release. And then Milktongue is the baby at the mother's breast sucking words, sucking the world into its mouth, thinking, "I am the world and everything comes in through the mouth, and it's mine, and my unconscious is the consciousness of the world." It's sounds, the aural, speech part of poetry. And Twinbird comes from, I think, the baby is sitting there making patterns with the hands, making twin birds as rhyme comes together and rhythm come together, and those three things, the rhythm, the overwhelming instinctual force, and the melos of the words themselves are the three. They all come together in another wonderful quote from him, "the dark mouth of the vowel through which the image tells its ancient runes." That connects the mouthing of the instincts, the unconscious feeding and greed of the sound pleasure of language with the riddles that are enfolded and then unfolded from the image; they are layered in the images that poetry makes.

BORGMANN

In your essay "Entering the Garden," you write, "Still the dream of somehow or other becoming able to accept the eventual dispersal of ourselves into who-knows-what mores of energy is essential, not only to our political well-being but to the very survival of 'planet earth' itself." Does this pertain to As Earth Begins to End?

GOEDICKE

That's what I'm aiming for. The more we realize that the inevitable is the loss of the boundaries between ourselves and the world, the less it seems we'll cling to the boundaries that prevent us, that say "I can't give this up, I have to have this food, these animals, this place, this space. I don't know how to compromise." And yet if we realize the compromise is coming no matter what, the dissolution of the self, that will help a little. I don't think, and I have very little hope, that we can save anything, but at least perhaps we can go more gently into the night.

BORGMANN

I see that as your brand of optimism. There is something always hopeful in your poems.

GOEDICKE

Well, who's to say? One of the things I was thinking about as I wrote Invisible Horses was consciousness. Where does it begin and end? We have a very narrow view of human consciousness. Animals have a kind of consciousness and plants have a kind of consciousness and it's pretty humanly egotistical to say, along with the Bible, that we are the stewards of everybody else's consciousnesses, but maybe we're not. Maybe it isn't so bad. I don't know if that's optimism. It frightens me to think of becoming nothing—nothing in my sense, but who knows what the other sense is? We don't know what is coming. If that's optimism, I guess it makes life a little more bearable because you don't know for certain. There are two things that are true of beginning students. They don't know how bad they are, and they don't know how good they are. The same is true of this. You don't know what's coming. It all seems so trite and unmoving when it's not a poem.

BORGMANN

Who are the great poets today?

GOEDICKE

My mind pulls an absolute blank on who is great. I don't want to choose. I know poets that interest me tremendously. I'm always fascinated by Jorie Graham. I liked The End of Beauty very much. And a couple of the books after that. I like. . .[Laughs.]. . .oh. . .I don't want to make these distinctions. I resist it because I am indisposed, I suppose habitually, to making judgments. I used to think that was a fault and I still do sometimes when I hear a really scathing critic, usually a young critic or a person with a lot of judgment, speak. In my thinking, an ideal community would be one where every view is expressed, every person's particular, different take on the world is visible, is expressed to everyone else, and the voice would be the sound of all those different voices. That's not choosing what's the best. Ir's choosing where the most agreement is. So if people ask me who my favorite poet is, I list a whole lot of poets, and that's partly what is happening here, too.

At the same time, I'm always stimulated and pleased to be challenged by a mind which says "Oh! You can't like so-and-so because of such-and­ such." A lot of the time, because I have abdicated this judgmental quality, I find myself—and maybe this is a function of the optimism—going too far in the direction of generosity. That's too nice a word for it. I let people get away with things. In talking to critics, such as that person throwing his weight around or being crisp and good about it, I like it because it makes me wake up, and makes me start to do that kind of thinking. Which of course you have to do in your own writing, when you're rewriting. But to begin with seeing and experiencing the world you really have to do that Keatsian negative capability. Otherwise you won't find out anything new and you won't see anything real, anything more than anybody else sees. Keats describes Shakespeare as being a person who is able to encompass all worlds without judging. He can inhabit, without having to decide—Oh, Richard was a bad man. He is able to see Richard in all of his various aspects, and present him to the world, because he has not decided, I don't like him. He has not insisted on his own positive input. He negates himself, is the way I would put it. The scholars would probably be outraged by a definition like that.

He also says—and it's been a long, long time since I read Keats—"You should see the sparrow scratching on the pebbles outside. You must be the sparrow scratching." I never thought of it before, but there is a relationship between Keats and the via negative that is an apprehension which is not prehensile, it's not aggrandizing, but it is, to go from the sublime to the ridiculous word, "wait-and-see." And let it happen.

BORGMANN

Is it true, as Harold Bloom has stated, that the best poetry was written by Shakespeare and that the general quality of poetry has been steadily decreasing since the Elizabethan age?

GOEDICKE

Traditionally, we say that we're in a world where form has broken down, a world of chaos, where all forms have broken up—institutional forms, artistic forms, music, painting, poetry, the novel—everything has broken apart, as is happening to us in terms of our science. We are breaking things down more and more into particles. Even the universe is breaking down into discrete particles. We are seeing things in that sense. That means we can't hold on to the shape of a Shakespearian play or sonnet.

But that doesn't mean that we lose Shakespeare anymore than we lose Bach. We just hear him with different ears, feel him with different insights, think about him with different thoughts. Historically, whatever art form appears is usually initially called formless. Then our ears adjust to it as in music, as in the new poetry. We have postmodernism now, so what do we have after postmodernism? We're adjusting constantly. Although there are giants like Shakespeare, I don't think it's fair to say everything has deteriorated since Shakespeare. There will never be another Shakespeare who can encompass that much. But we don't know how we're going to hear or understand some of the people who are writing today. We've already learned to hear many of them in a different way in my lifetime. When I stopped going to school, the end of my poetry books was devoted to Elliot and Pound, and many of my teachers were just throwing up their hands over Elliot and saying, "Well, we can't understand him; this is a breakdown of form."

BORGMANN

Do you dream vividly?

GOEDICKE

I don't know that I dream more vividly than anybody else, but I do dream. I do not write about my dreams, because I think dreams conceal—either deliberately or just by their nature or the constitution of the dreaming mind. And it's the business of poetry to reveal. So when I'm faced with a dream that has been moving and exciting and interesting to me, I consider it. I'll use parts of the dream, but I wouldn't ever just recapitulate the dream. I try to understand what the dream is saying. I very often use the word "dream" when I mean "poem," and "poem" when I mean "dream." A poet loose enough in a dream sort of state—not really dreaming—allowing the free play of the unconscious will come up with words and images that cause her to say, "Where did that come from?" the same as a dream will. And a poet's response to that would not be as an interpreter of a dream, analyzing it, at least not right now, but instead to move it forward, to push, to play with it more, to do a kind of waking dreaming with it. At the same time, trying to use that other resource we have, language, to express it. Once you do that, the language begins to tell you other things, because dreams, like poems, are full of puns. But the poem is a far more conscious process, a conscious release of the unconscious. That's why it's so hard, because it's so easy to will a poem. You say, "Ah! I know what that's about." And then you're lost. You give a quick, glib ending, and you set the poem so it won't move again. Whereas it may have a life that you haven't discovered yet.

BORGMANN

Have you ever had something bubble up from your unconsciousness where your consciousness said, "No, I can't write about that," either because you might hurt someone else or yourself?

GOEDICKE

Oh yes. I used to just make sure the person didn't recognize himself or herself. And if the poem were published, I'd be sure it was published in a magazine the person would never see. But sometimes those poems are the best. They are the ones, for me anyway, that are easiest and loosest, and I have the most fun with them.

It's no accident that it's easier to write a curse poem than a praise poem. I mean a good curse poem. You're letting out stuff that's original, because you've been suppressing it. Suppression is the enemy of originality, of course, and of honesty. We're busy being polite and civil and we don't let things out. I think poetry is based on both praise and cursing. . .swearing. What's the opposite of praise? Denigration? Hatred? I don't know. But misery, joy, those things are both there. It's hardest to talk about the praise and the good things but you have to be able to. If you are all sunshine and joy no one is going to believe you, because we know it's not that way. But if you bring in the dark part of it, that makes it whole. Usually.

One of the things that has always interested me is how much many of the philosophers I've known have been drawn to poetry. And vice versa, how many poets are drawn to philosophy. I think it's intimately connected with, I'd say "ground and sky" or "earth and sky," but also body and mind. I do believe if you concentrate on one aspect, you are fascinated by a lack of the other, and you want to go to it. And since both poets and philosophers are after wholeness, you tend to keep an eye out for the other, and of course both are yearning inevitably for some kind of—not an absolute—but an answer.

I'll tell you a secret about Invisible Horses—I'm always waiting for some smart-ass person to say, "Oh, we know what those horses are in the burning stable. They're just the shadows in Plato's cave. We know that." And they are, in a way, because, it seems to me, now here we are back on the dark side and the shadow, but the shadow and the substance—we're always searching for what is substance and what is shadow. What's particular and what's general. How to make the particular general and the general particular.

BORGMANN

How do you write what's in your heart when it's painful and you want to avoid it?

GOEDICKE

Why is it easier to write about sad things than happy things? But here you're saying some things are too sad to write about. And in a way, they are. When Leonard and I first met—in the MacDowell Colony—he asked what my favorite line of poetry was, and I said, "Brightness falls from the air," from "Litany in a Time of Plague," by Thomas Nashe. The brightness falls and yet fall is bright, too. And there's always poignancy and beauty because it will not last, because it's falling, it's transient, and your awareness of it, that's the shadow of the sunlight. It's hard to write about because of that pain and yet it's important, it's wonderful, because in writing it, you can have your cake and eat it too. You can say, "Brightness falls from the air." And there is the brightness. And there it is falling.

I can't tell you the number of times that something beautiful and wonderful has struck me and brought me to tears, or almost to tears, because of the awareness that it's not all. On the other hand, there are moments, as Jocelyn Siler said to me, that are "moments the devil can't get at." They're not necessarily conscious moments, but sudden feelings, little bits of bliss that float across your landscape or emotional interior. They're not really expressible but they are there. The fact of their inexpressibility is what encapsulates them from the devil.

When I had cancer, the first breast cancer, and even the last one, I wanted to write about it right away. But the nature of things made it impossible. Then gradually I decided I shouldn't, and it was fine. When I wanted to write, I could. In fact, there was a period in my life when my friends used to keep saying, "Are you all right?" It had been ages, and I was cured, but they were still worried, because I kept writing about it. It's that emotion recollected in tranquility of Wordsworth. When there's some great grief that occurs, it's a truism, but I think true to say that you mustn't write about it too soon. There is some pain that takes a while to deal with. It's frightening and so you need to wait to let it come out. But part of the way out of pain, in a way, is the shaping of it, and once you pour it out and then begin to shape it, you begin to feel some kind of control, some kind of intimacy with it which is not painful. I used to have a philosopher aesthetician teacher who talked about the "savage shriek of ecstasy." He said we are savages. We go up to a sunset and we want to express it. We feel this glorious thing, and what do we say? "Wow, gee, come look, isn't this great?" Or we feel a tremendous emotion toward someone, and we say, "Oh! I love you." Or we artlessly say in pain, "Ow, ow, ow, ow." But once you begin to put it into words, and you have any pleasure in the words, and any pleasure in the shape you're beginning to make, then you begin to be able to stand it at the same time you begin to be able to express it. The reason you can't do it when it's so close is because you're too busy saying, "Ow, ow, ow." I think that's how it works.

Issue 52: A Conversation with Phillip Lopate

issue52

Found in Willow Springs 52

April 25, 2003

Sarah Coomber, Bridget Hildreth, and Travis Manning

A CONVERSATION WITH PHILLIP LOPATE

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Photo Credit: Harpers Magazine

Widely regarded as one of America’s foremost living essayists, Phillip Lopate’s publications include three books of personal essays (Bachelor-hood, Against Joie de Vivre, and Portrait of My Body), two poetry collections, and other works on teaching and on film criticism. He is a frequent contributor to such periodicals as Harper’s, The Paris Review, The Threepenny Review, and The New York Times Book Review, and has been awarded a Guggenheim Fellowship, two grants from the National Endowment for the Arts, and other honors. Phillip Lopate is also known as a first-rate teacher of nonfiction writing; currently he holds the Adams Chair at Hofstra University, and also teaches for the MFA program at Bennington College. He visits with interviewers Sarah Coomber, Bridgit Hildreth, and Travis Manning on a recent visit to Spokane.

 

HILDRETH

We are interested in your view of the state of creative nonfiction. What styles of literature are on their way out? What styles are on their way in? I know John Keeble, Eastern Washington University creative writing professor, hates the title “creative nonfiction,” so if you want to address personal narrative instead. . .

LOPATE

I think I prefer the term “literary nonfiction.” Creativity is such a strange thing, as though people would intentionally write uncreatively. It’s a little bit like Robert Frost’s line about the poet: “You don’t call yourself a poet, others call you a poet.” You don’t call yourself a “creative nonfiction writer.”

Certainly I think that the personal narrative has grown a lot in the last ten years. Part of what happened is that with composition, which is the service workhorse of English departments in the university, and the course that everybody has to take, freshman composition, you get to turn more toward personal narrative in the last fifteen years. It just started in places like Stanford with the Voice Project (a program that brought professional writers to campus to teach freshman). There were people in the field who were saying the best way to turn students on to writing is to get them to tell their own stories and work from their experience. Before that it had mostly been taught as a kind of legal-brief way of summoning arguments, rhetoric and persuasion. I still think that is one of the dominant models, and deserves to be, but there began to be more of them for the personal narrative.

Then of course the vogue of the new memoir had a lot to do with it. And the textbooks that were adopted, not just mine (The Art of the Personal Essay, Anchor Books, 1994), which is really not a textbook dealing with the personal essay but which has had a long, popular run. But the real mammoth-selling textbooks began to use a lot of personal narratives, and they also covered the spectrum in terms of multicultural authors. So you started getting these kind of contemporary classics, like Richard Rodriguez for instance, which I think is excellent writing, but basically you have one of every thing: Leslie Marmon Silko, a Native American writer, Sonja Sanchez , Sandra Cisneros and so on and so forth. This became a way to placate political correctness.

HILDRETH

In the education field, textbooks were, especially following Birkets book, The Gutenberg Elegies, being forced into broadening their spectrum to become more inclusive.

LOPATE

One of the curious things that happened was that there was this market-driven emphasis on the contemporary. I think the reason why my Art of the Personal Essay has continued to have a niche is that I insisted on starting with the ancients and moving to the present. A lot of teachers wanted to be able to teach not just the contemporary. I think it is really strange to teach only the contemporary, to ignore the whole tradition. This is an old tradition. This is not something that is a recent vogue. As long as there have been writers, writers have been telling their personal stories. A writer has only his or her own experience to work with, however they may transform it. They could make it science fiction but they are still working with the motions that they observed themselves. Many times it’s not science fiction, it’s much closer than that. There have always been autobiographical novels like Martin Eden by Jack London or The Way of All Flesh by Samuel Butler or Red Burn by Herman Melville, because people want to turn their experience into stories.

Of course, you go back to Cicero and St. Augustine, the personal witness, the attempt to develop a voice that’s flexible and intelligent and sympathetic on the page. This is one of the grand traditions. I am particularly insistent on linking up with that, with that past. My only view is that personal essays, if not all personal narratives constitute a kind of conversation and that we are talking to our predecessors and ancestors as much as we are talking to the contemporary audience. Many writers will tell you that.

COOMBER

You mentioned the new memoir, is that supplanting something else? Is there anything that is getting thrown to the wayside?

LOPATE

I do think that the new memoir has undergone a kind of mutation from the old autobiography, or what they call “memoirs,” plural. It used to be that you sat down to write your life, usually when you had lived a large part of it. There were the memoirs of old generals and actresses whose stardom derived from their popularity as public figures or as politicians, rather than because they were writers. The writer’s memoirs, which is a kind of separate form, also tended to look at the rhythms and the rises and falls of a life, so the subject matter became development. In the new memoir there tended to be a shrinkage of chronology, so that thirty-year-olds were writing about their experience up to age 18 or something, and it became much more a form about the crucible of adolescence. And of course even if they wrote into their forties there was a tendency to pitch the memoir toward a single afternoon talk-show theme, like physical disability, sexual abuse, incest, alcoholism, addiction--and this was a reductive approach which also tended to emphasize the autobiographical protagonist as a victim who got over this problem. You see, if you are writing a long autobiography there is no one problem you get over. It’s life. You have to keep living it. You may start off with some difficulty, but you have to keep going even after you succeed.

It’s a curiosity of many autobiographies that often the first third is better than the rest. For instance, if you look at a book like History of My Life by Charlie Chaplin, his period of being knocked from pillar to post as a kid and trying to develop a sense of self and professional self and making forays into early film-making, all that is quite exciting. All that is the construction of a self. Once he became a big star it tended to be, “Then I had lunch with the Duke of Windsor and then I saw Lady So and So afterwards,” and it becomes much more boring, it becomes now a period of being with other wildly successful people. The major issue has been solved.

The new memoir has tended to focus on one issue and also the new memoir has tended to bring in a lot of techniques from fiction and poetry. This probably has to do with the genesis of nonfiction in MFA programs. In the beginning God created fiction and poetry (laughter).

MANNING

And drama somewhere back there.

LOPATE

Somewhere drama. In fact, now there is a magazine called The Fourth Genre, dedicated to essays. Which is a nice magazine and the title is wittingly saying: “We’re the last ones.” Nonfiction was the Hagar and Ishmael of the literary biblical family.

A lot of writers who began in poetry or fiction began by writing memoirs. They found that they could actually get a book of memoirs signed up more easily. Mary Carr, or Lucy Greely both began in poetry, for instance, and took their MFA degrees in poetry. What I have found is that the prose of the new memoir is affected by the techniques of fiction and poetry. There tends to be a greater emphasis on lyrical language, and some of the invidious notions of “show, don’t tell” have even percolated into the nonfiction sense of the craft of nonfiction. “Show, don’t tell,” it seems to me, is far too broad a rule even in fiction since a lot of great eighteenth, or nineteenth-century fiction certainly does show and tell. It’s a crude formulation, which has a greater truth in it. Of course if the teller has a wonderfully modulated voice and mind, I can see it in any method of telling. When Stendhal is on a roll, who cares if he’s showing or telling? I don’t want to fight that battle. What I want to say is that this interdiction against telling began to percolate into the craft of contemporary nonfiction, so that in workshops that I teach I’ll often hear students say, “Well I think you should do this as scenes,” and I’ll think, well, maybe yes, maybe no. The issue is not to do it as scenes or not as scenes. The issue is to bring a lively understanding or intelligence to voice in the material.

My idea, and it’s not just my idea--it’s the cornerstone of Vivian Gornecks’ book The Situation and the Story: It’s not so important what the experience was you want to tell, it’s what you make of the experience. People think they are entitled to tell the story because they have suffered. Emily Dickinson who would sit in her room and hardly go out and have a universe at her disposal. I remember saying to this class in Minneapolis: “It’s not enough to have cancer and have been sexually abused as a child. You’ve got to make it interesting on the page.” There is nothing intrinsically interesting about any material. If your mother was a prostitute, and your father was a drug pusher, that might just play as tawdry. It’s really what you do with the material.

So that puts a premium on mind and style. I do think that the personal narrative taps more directly into powers of thinking and reasoning than, let’s say, fiction and poetry. Or to put it another way, the unconscious plays less of a role. For instance, in fiction it may be important to develop a narrative where unconscious symbols resonate inside the narrative. That may not be important at all in a personal essay. I think that part of the resistance the fledgling autobiographical writers have to working in the form, is they use it kind of as a resistance to the mind. Because in our culture, the heart is privileged over the mind.

For instance, I was teaching a workshop and there was a presentation by one student who had earlier in the term written a very good narrative about her early years. In fact, her mother was a prostitute and drug addict, but she had done a brilliant job in making it interesting and showing how she thinks about it now as well as how she experienced it then. The second presentation she made was filled with a kind of confusion and myopia, because she wanted to get into the immediate sensation of what it felt like to be so confused. I said: “This will not do,” and several students defended her and said it recaptured her vulnerability.

I thought this was a misunderstanding of form. That you don’t just replicate the vulnerability and confusion, that you have an obligation to access as much understanding and wisdom that you can. That used to be the attraction of the personal essay and autobiographical narrative: that you were in the presence of somebody who was not dumbing down, who was trying to share as much worldly understanding as he or she could.

HILDRETH

Can we look at how that’s been received. I think about Loren Eiseley, who was definitely influenced by Montaigne’s rambling Sallies of the mind. He was also influenced by the affects of Edgar Allen Poe’s application of story and myth, and applied this to his personal essay.

LOPATE

But do you know the wonderful memoir by Eiseley, All the Strange Hours? Eiseley led a kind of gothic life.

HILDRETH

Well, he was not received well and so he did kind of turn inward. He wrote to no audience, is what he said.

LOPATE

He wrote to no audience. His mother was deaf and he was a hobo for a while, riding the rails, very poor. He witnessed his father’s tragic death. He had a lot of those sensational deficits going for him. But he had one of the most intelligent profiles of the twentieth century. Every sentence of his is modulated and he is drawing on whole centuries of formal writing. He’s not only trying to situate you in the moment of confusion and make you feel that confusion; he’s trying to give the emotion of it, but also his understanding of it. I’ll go farther and say that in Eisley’s case, his use of metaphor and myth has real resonance because you don’t feel that it is coming out of Creative Writing 101. You feel that he is somebody that has extreme difficulty in making relationships with other human beings. He has to look to fossils, to creatures, to the stars in order to feel out his relationships.

COOMBER

Turning the questions back to your work in particular I’m wondering if you can tell us about the vulnerability that there is in being a well-read personal essayist. People know your family dynamics, parts of your body, your relationships. When you walk into a room of readers, do you feel overexposed? And do you care?

LOPATE

I don’t care. What’s surprising is that people read and forget. I’m sure the most attentive readers don’t, but in a way they read for the pleasure of the moment, and they’ll remember some things but not others. So you know, I’ll meet a reader and it will come up that I’m Jewish and they are surprised, and I’ll say: “Well, didn’t you read the book.” But they are not reading to compile a dossier on me; they are reading for something else.

Also, I don’t entirely identify who I think I am with this person. It’s not that I’m lying —essentially I’ve told the truth— it’s that it’s one experience to know the page and another to be in a social situation. Montaigne said something like, “Friends of mine who I wouldn’t dream of telling things to can go to any local bookstore and find out any of that stuff.” I am to some degree a reserved person, a little shy, certainly not somebody who rattles on about my self socially. Most of the time I would rather get somebody else to talk about themselves. I don’t need to hear my story; in fact, before I remarried, it was a problem in dating because I would get bored having to tell this stuff over again. I really felt like saying: “Why don’t you go to the bookstore and you can find all this stuff out.” When I’ve written an experience satisfactorily to my mind, then I don’t think about it much more. It’s a strange using up of one’s experience. The written account comes to replace the memory.

COOMBER

Do you think you are losing your memories, almost, by putting them down?

LOPATE

No, because so much happens to a person in a lifetime that you can never write about everything. There is always going to be much more that you haven’t written about than you have written about.

HILDRETH

And always things that are unresolved.

LOPATE

And always things that are unresolved. So I get pleasure in confiding on the page, or pushing myself to a point where I feel like I’ve gone deeper or I’ve gone further. That’s a reward. I’m looking to get to those passages. So it doesn’t bother me, because it doesn’t affect my interactions at the moment. I still have to feel my way through my defenses and another person’s defenses when I meet a stranger. The same awkward catch-as-catch-can experience.

COOMBER

How about another part of this issue. You write very personal things about people you’ve known: family, lovers or whoever. Do you run these things by them before they go to print, or is everything that happens to you fair game and it just goes without saying?

LOPATE

Well, I don’t run it by them; I don’t want them to have censorship rights on my material. I don’t think everything is fair game and I don’t feel entirely justified. That is, I don’t have a single ethical formula I can apply. It’s true that by yourself you can portray other people, and it’s true that writing personal narrative, you are going to write about other people because nobody is an isolate. So you define your own personality by projecting through other people to a certain extent. I think that there are ethical questions that need to be decided on a case-by-case basis. What I try to do is not to use my writing as a vendetta, to get back at someone or to prove that I was right and they were wrong. But obviously I am more vivid to myself than other people are to me, so to some level what I am doing is conveying what it feels like for life to come at this particular individual.

COOMBER

What you said a few minutes ago is that you don’t feel completely justified in what you do. Its sounds a bit like your credo: You won’t use it as a vendetta, but you are trying to show how your consciousness perceives the world.

LOPATE

If people are looking for a nonfiction license issued by me, in the same way that a poetic license works, I am not the one to give it to them. I continue to have ambivalent feelings. I continue to hold back material that I don’t write about. I don’t write about everything. I do protect some people. It all depends. I have hurt people by the things I’ve written, so I can’t offer myself as a model on the safe way to do this. All I can say is that if you are going to be a writer, you are probably going to have to accept the guilt of articulating your visions which may not suit other people.

HILDRETH

And would you say that that is also a distinctive character in your personal narrative, the Montaigne’s concept of apologist? That you formulate an apology on the page for what’s about to be said?

LOPATE

I think you have to reflect on your practice. I think that you can’t start out with the assumption that you are a good man, or the last good man. If you are observing yourself, you have a need to be prepared to find dislikable evidence. So it’s a form both of self-justification and self-condemnation, perhaps.

MANNING

What thoughts do you give to audience as you are writing the personal essay? Are you writing to a specific person? A demographic? An aspect of your own personality? How does that imagined audience affect how you write various personal pieces?

LOPATE

I would say that I take audience into consideration in a few ways. On one level I don’t take audience into consideration; I just try to write as close to the thoughts that are being dictated to me through my brain as I can. The first draft, I’m trying to get my thoughts down. I try to write for the illustrious dead who will be forgiving and understand that I am trying to walk in their footsteps. So I write to the shades of Lamb. “How’s that, Montaigne, Stevenson saying, “Here’s my little missive, I’m trying to do what you guys have done.” I know they will understand some of the gadgets I’m using because I do see myself in the literary tradition. So some people might say they are writing for God. Since I’m never sure if I believe in God, or doubt I do, I would say I am writing for someone who’s smarter than I am, who will at least be tolerant of my flaws. If you write down, you’re going to get in trouble, so try to write up. That’s my understanding of my practice.

The other thing that I do is I try to keep my audience in mind to the degree that I anticipate the audience’s boredom or irritation. So it isn’t so much placating the audience as just trying to keep the audience engrossed. Cynthia Ozick once paid me a compliment in that she found my writing to be engrossing. I thought that’s as much as I want. Engrossing is good. If I can just keep it engrossing, a person can disagree, but at least they don’t go into a zone, the flat-line boredom. When I read another personal essayist and I feel that basically I know what is going to come from the next five pages because I’m just going to tromp through the expected positions, I just want to skip. So you want to keep it engrossing.

COOMBER

When you say you’re trying to keep it engrossing, are you talking about for an audience, like Montaigne? Ivy Leagues? Readers in the working class?

LOPATE

Not Montaigne. I mean what Virginia Woolf called the common reader, which I think of as somebody who is educated. They don’t have to be Ivy League--my father had a high school education and tried to go to night college, and it didn’t work out, but he read a lot. There used to be much more of this understanding of the working-class autodidact. It really doesn’t matter the level of formal education. What matters is how much someone is willing to open himself or herself to a book.

I can’t write to the bottom level of the typical magazine editor. That’s like a grasshopper. I fortunately had the experience of being a book writer before being a journalist or magazine writer. So now when I write for magazines, they know to expect a certain thing from me and I’ll never be entirely able to be processed into their extraordinarily quick attention spans. If they’re going to publish me, it’s because they like the idea of having some other kind of voice coming in. They like to think they can tolerate a certain amount of literary, “old-timey” voice. But I can’t write for that short attention span. It’s so inhibiting. I have to feel like I can at least develop some points.

MANNING

Do you think that the audience for a personal essay or memoir is still growing? In the 1996 Writer’s Chronicle article with John Bennion, you said that your attempt with The Art of the Personal Essay was to reestablish the genre of the personal essay. Do you think the book has done that, looking back seven years now, and is the personal essay genre or sub-genre continuing to grow up?

LOPATE

I don’t think that my book did that, but I do think that my book contributed in however a slightest way. There was a hunger in the culture at large for personal narrative. Not very different from the hunger people have when they watch the Oprah Winfrey show when somebody says, “My mother was shot to death by a killer and then he put a bullet in me and then I almost died.” I mean, there’s a curiosity about authentic experience, and with that a kind of impatience with the artifacted, fictive plot. I think that fiction has lost a certain claim of intensity. There’s always pulp fiction and genre fiction, but I think that the whole culture has wanted to hear people stand up and testify. I think that speaks to a certain religious inclination in American culture.

MANNING

Like the sermon.

LOPATE

The sermon has a connection to the personal essay and not just the sermon but the revival meeting, where someone stands up and says: “I was a drunk, I was a gambler.” Also the media magazines, newspapers, have a constant need for copy that is readable and that they don’t have to edit much. There are tons of hybrid, semi-essay articles. Someone begins by talking about himself or herself to establish and determine authenticity. Let’s say the author knows someone who was bulimic, for instance. And then, the author interviews the experts in bulimia, and then goes to a different party. This is a kind of hybrid, semi-personal essay, semi-article: The person goes out and gets some facts. This isn’t the practice of the art at its highest. We have to look at the fact that magazines, newspapers have an endless appetite for topical articles and that one of the ways of approaching topical articles is the personal experience. And they also have these niches like the back-of-the-book, the six hundred-word article; there are even newspapers where somebody not on staff can send in something, as long as its six hundred to a thousand words for the op-ed pages.

MANNING

How about the other forms of media—Internet, TV, radio—how is the personal essay creeping into those media?

LOPATE

On NPR, you see essayists on TV, Andy Rooney. Certainly the Internet has encouraged many more people. There’s a big market and appetite for the watered-down product, but there may be no greater market for the most literary examples. I think it’s just as hard to get a collection of personal essays published now as it was ten years ago. I don’t think there’s any further market. I think what you have is a kind of disguised collection of personal essays: Somebody writes a self-help book, somebody writes of his experiences, like Lee Iococca, basically in a series of essays. Nobody thinks of it as a series of personal essays; basically it is.

But for someone who is enamored of Didion or Baldwin or Lamb or Hazlitt, Montaigne or Stevenson, to be writing a collection and then trying to get it published, I counsel patience and forbearance because it may be just as difficult. I happen to be one of few lucky writers who can publish collections of my essays. Most writers who publish collections of their essays are famous already as novelists, let’s say, an Updike or Ozick or Saul Bellow can get a collection of essays published. But to not have established distinction in another area and try to achieve it directly as a personal essayist is difficult. There are collections that continue to be published, sometimes by small presses and sometimes by very small presses (laughter). I’m trying to make a distinction between the very large, broad area of demand, which made some people say, “This is the age of the essay”, and on the other hand a very small demand for the art of the personal essay at its most refined.

MANNING

How many copies of The Art of the Personal Essay have been sold?

LOPATE

The Art of the Personal Essay has done very well. I can’t count the number of copies, but I can tell you that I continue to get royalty checks and was able to buy a car, make other purchases, basically it’s been a good story for me. I’m now attempting to do another thing like that, which is I’m editing an anthology of American movie criticism from the silent era to the present, which will attempt to assert a canon of the best American criticism, which I hope will be adopted by film programs and English programs. Occasionally I experience a twinge of chagrin that my most popular book is an anthology and not one of my own one hundred percent Phillip Lopate books. We take what we can get.

COOMBER

I’m interested in your view of truth in the personal essay. It stems from an earlier discussion we had about “The Moody Traveler” (in a collection of essays, A Portrait of My Body) It was about a situation you encountered in the past and when you described your writing process, you mentioned that after writing it, you went back to notes taken at the time of the actual event and found that they differed, somewhat substantially, from the essay that you wrote. You opted not to change it then, and went forward. How do you justify that as practitioner of the personal essay?

LOPATE

I guess that because I consider the personal essay a story, and consider myself a story-teller, I do feel sometimes that I can take liberties. For the most part, I don’t take liberties. I’m a great believer in purity. It doesn’t bother me so much to break the rule in that way. It’s not as though I was describing the negotiations for the end of the Vietnam War, where it would really be important not to distort the truth. This is something that I don’t lose a lot of sleep over. I try to work from factual materials as much as possible because I enjoy the idea of shaping what actually happened into a narrative. But I’m aware that I’m slicing and shaping, and I’m leaving out so much, so I’m already distorting. This is another acceptance of guilt on my part You almost have to be a little shameless to be a personal essayist.

COOMBER

Do you feel that in a case such as this, where it doesn’t matter that much because it’s your story, does that impinge on your credibility for other nonfiction pieces?

LOPATE

Is someone going to say, “This person admitted that he changed one detail in one of his pieces, therefore we can’t believe him in another piece?” No, I don’t think so. I don’t think this issue has ever really come up, where someone has challenged the veracity of something I’ve written. Maybe because I’m writing about such insignificant people, including myself, that it’s not really an issue. But also it is because whenever possible, I do tell the truth. This is an interesting issue. There is honesty, candor, the truth, facts . . . I try to be as honest as I can. I like the sound of honesty. Sometimes when you’re having a conversation you exchange small talk for a while and then your friend says something or you say something that comes from a different place, a more honest place, and it is as though in the soundtrack of your life, the music changes keys at that moment. I like that changing of keys. I like that moment of honesty.

HILDRETH

In your forthcoming book, The Waterfront, you are dealing with a lot more factual information and research-oriented topics, and it seems like a slight departure from what you have been doing in the past. How do you go about putting that into a story format and how do your keep the story from “flat-lining”?

LOPATE

What I had to do in The Waterfront was find stories all along the New York City waterfront, and go with them and try to convey my enthusiasm for the story. For instance, I have a long chapter on public housing in my book because in New York the projects were built on the waterfront due to the fact that a lot of that land had been abandoned. The land in parts was quite decrepit, sometimes toxic, and so the projects were easy to assemble, particularly above 96th Street where you get into Harlem. So there are all sorts of issues of race and class, but what interested me is that it all began so idealistically. There was this tremendous movement of reformance to build public housing. I know that I still believe in public housing, and that the federal government should go back to funding public housing.

So what I tried to do was to disentangle the past and try to figure out how it began so idealistically, how that dream was deferred and became rather grim so that a writer like James Baldwin could write about the projects and Harlem as a kind of nightmare. And then, to give it another twist, these projects were not destroyed the way they were in other parts of the country, but they continued to work. To find what was still reclaimable about them is to understand the current optimism of the New York Housing Authority to improve them, to complicate a story because most middle-class people regard the projects as unredeemably awful. And I was coming from a different place. I was coming from having grown up poor and asking myself, “Don’t they continue to perform a good function by giving decent, affordable housing?”

The fact is that nobody picking up my new book The Waterfront would think they would find a chapter on public housing. It’s just not what you would think. I like the idea of finding a story that was unexpected and carrying it out so its vicissitudes about idealism, cynicism, despair, more idealism, come to a kind of stand-off, you might say.

MANNING

What sorts of research did you do for that chapter?

LOPATE

I did a lot of library research, read the controversies and arguments of the time. There was no one book that had a history, so I had to go to articles. For instance, the initial idea of building towers was seen as progressive because you have more green space around it. The [project] towers were originally coming from that “towers-in-the-park-notion,” which has since to a large degree been discredited. There was this impulse to tear down the slums and build these clean spanking towers. Of course, you’ve got people arguing, “Well, maybe those tenements have more vitality and are more comfortable than these towers in the park.” You go through a lot of ironies and ambiguities. Everyone is proceeding to some degree from a good heart, but it plays out in very different ways.

There’s an example of researching. And then I walked around with people from the New York City Housing Authority and they took me through the places and I got over my initial fear and came to see them in a different way.

HILDRETH

I’m initially curious: Not knowing the terrain myself but from having spoken with friends who grew up near the waterfront and grew in the seascout program. It was free for every child. Children who have grown up in the projects have access to a geography that many adults have no idea about.

LOPATE

Would they have access to that geography? Because highways were built around the waterfront in Manhattan, they would have had to cross these major highways to get to that waterfront. That’s one of the great tragedies of New York is that the highways cut people off from the water. A lot of what I’m doing, in effect, is to question the knee-jerk politics of my peer-group and to say, “What do I really think?” and not “What am I supposed to think?” Actually, there’s a lot of politics in this book. It’s the equivalent of asking yourself about the Afghanistan War and the Iraq War: “What do I think about this?” and not “What am I supposed to say?”

HILDRETH

So you’ve embedded the politics with story?

LOPATE

Yes. For instance, there’s this very important figure in New York history, Robert Moses, who was kind of a master builder of New York. Moses has become an archvillain in the mass narrative of New York and I went back and looked at some revisionist takes saying actually he did an incredible number of great things. He did some bad things, and we think of [him] because it’s paralyzed us from doing anything new and bold.

We’re so afraid of planning in general. I’m trying to assert my own view of the city and the city in the making. That interests me. At one point in America, it seemed easy to make cities. People seemed to know how to do it. Now whatever they do, they feel like they’re acting in bad faith: They feel clumsy. And that happens in Spokane (Washington) as well as in New York.

MANNING

So which narrator is going to walk the pages of this book? Which Phillip Lopate persona have you chosen?

LOPATE

A middle-aged Phillip Lopate. Because I say at one point, when I was younger, all I needed to do was walk around and I would be filled with poetic lyricism. And I can no longer pretend to have that sense of the younger man walking around and turning everything into writing. So it is, in effect, a more disenchanted observer, but there are positives to disenchantment as well as negatives. It’s somebody who has a lot of affection for my native city and has seen so many ambiguous developments: good plans that didn’t get built, bad plans that did get built. Things that have had different results.

I’m trying to explore a place because a lot of me is that place. I consider myself, my identity, as a New Yorker almost more central than my identity as what, as a Jew? Probably I’m more New Yorker. It’s a central part of who I am.

Issue 53: A Conversation with Rick Bass

issue53

Found in Willow Springs 53

October 24, 2003

Brian O'Grady and Rob Sumner

A CONVERSATION WITH RICK BASS

Rick-Bass

Photo Credit: The Elliot Bay Book Company

RICK BASS IS THE AUTHOR OF EIGHTEEN BOOKS of fiction and nonfiction, including the novel Where The Sea Used To Be, and editor of the anthology The Roadless Yaak. Bass lives with his family in northwest Montana’s million-acre Yaak Valley, where there is still not a single acre of designated wilderness. In October 2003, Rick Bass talked with Brian O’Grady and Rob Sumner at the home of the writer John Keeble, a ranch located southwest of Spokane, Washington. During the conversation they sat on the rear porch, still under construction, and enjoyed a meal of freshly slaughtered pork as the sun settled into the horizon beyond the hills of pine. We are eating bowls of chili.

BRIAN O’GRADY

Before you started writing, what effect did a compelling story have on you?

BASS

Before I started writing, I read a lot, as a child, but certainly not as much as my children read, it’s just what I thought of as a lot. And I’ve met other people along the way who really do read a lot, what I’ve thought was a lot was more just a hobby. I’m in awe and some envy of truly serious readers. That’s a long answer to say I probably didn’t read as much as I thought I did. I loved it and I read everything I could but there’s people who don’t go to sleep because they love reading, I mean they read twenty-four hours a day. In retrospect I realize I’m not one of those kind of people and certainly now that I’ve become a writer I don’t have the luxury or indulgence of becoming that kind of person when paradoxically I most need to be.

A single story can have a huge influence on a writer, or a reader, or any person, and for me that story was Legends of the Fall, the novella by Jim Harrison that really made me want to write fiction. I loved to read fiction, I loved to read nonfiction before that point, but reading that story made me want to try and write it. I don’t why. I mean I know why I like that story, why I love that story, but I just remember having that impression of how big—the cliché about that story is epic, which is an overused word, but I just remember how big the emotions and content, scale, voice, everything about that story was larger and fuller than what I had read previously. And not to take away anything from Legends of the Fall, I’m not saying it’s the only book that way. It could have been other stories in the world but I had not to that point read them. I believe there’s a story like that for every reader. I think eventually, sooner or later, you encounter them. If they make you want to be a writer or not, who knows? There are too many variables there, but for me it did make me want to be a fiction writer.

O’GRADY

Do you aim for that range of emotion?

BASS

No. I wish it were that simple, that I could have a guidepost, or model, or scale against which to measure each work, if that’s what you’re asking, but I don’t aim for anything other than just to do the best I can. And that almost sounds defensive, but it’s liberating is what it is. And conversely or paradoxically it’s not so liberating, because that’s pretty tough to ask of yourself to do the best you can every time. I mean you can only do the best you can one time, and then that’s your best. The only thing I aim for is to do the best I can given any emotion, any range of emotions, any character, any range of characters, any setting. Whatever story or essay I find myself in I just try to do my best, which is usually task enough. That can be taken the wrong way when I say that’s task enough. I don’t mean that, “Oh I’m so wonderful that it’s hard to match my best,” I mean it’s so easy to be lazy, I think it’s hard enough for everybody to do their best every time they go out(,) or even try to have the courage to attempt their best.

Jonathan Johnson comes out with a plate of ham, baked beans, and salad for each of us. His three-year-old daughter, Anya, and John Keeble’s dog, Ricky, come out with him.
Jonathan: I don’t think we’re going to have room for all of them here.
Rick: This is incredible. This is so good.
Jonathan: I’m sorry the silverware has to be inside the toilet paper.
Anya stays outside with us for several minutes while her dad brings out the rest of the food. Rick gives Ricky some pets.
Brian: You were right about getting out here.
Rick: Good.

O’GRADY

Do you still get the same impact that you did before your writing, when you read fiction today?

BASS

More so. Much more so.

Rick smiles.
Rick: That dog.
Jonathan: I’ll bring Ricky inside. Come on, Ricky. Come on!
Ricky falls to the deck. He wiggles about on his back and wags his tail.
Rick begins to talk but starts laughing at Ricky.
Rick: I have not fed that dog. Laughter.
Rick: Oh my gosh, you are a trickster. That’s great. No, I said, come on, not lie down and roll over. You misheard me. Roll over so I can scratch your belly and feed you. Give you pork.
Laughter.

BASS

A great story affects me more now than it ever has. I rely upon reading as tonic more than I ever have. I think that’s probably just a function of age as much as profession. You’ve seen, approaching or in the shadows of middle age, and you still haven’t seen everything but I’ve seen a lot more than I had seen when I started out being a writer, which is to say when I started out making notes about what the world looks like. That’s a bad place to come to as a person. So I really rely on fiction and nonfiction, creative nonfiction, and poetry to pull me out of that, the natural tendency we have as individuals to go into that telescopic place of diminished perception, observation, newness, wonder, all those significant artistic notions. A good story means more to me now than it ever did as a young person. Also, having wrestled with writing for almost twenty years I have a greater appreciation now for when it’s done well than I did. And that’s not to say I took it for granted when

I was younger, I still loved reading great things but my palate was not as developed then.

Rick eats between questions.
Rob: I’ll let you chew.

ROB SUMNER

You’ve noted the importance of not overly controlling your writing. When you’re developing a story how do you refrain from interfering too much?

BASS

I would say something like that and it’s true, but you grow and prob- ably contract too, but you grow as a writer, hopefully, and go through phases and spells, play to your strengths and then work on your weaknesses. For me, personally, that has probably at one time been a strength, to not control a story or just go with the intuitive and subconscious and trust those instincts and focus on feeling them as powerfully as possible. It’s hard to argue against that approach, that can be kind of a tiring way to go through stories, one after another, but it can also be deeply and strongly felt. As I get older, for lack of a more precise term, the intellectual side of writing does interest me more, if only that I’m slowly learning my way into it. It becomes like a game to try and control a story now and tinker with it, make it go this way and go that way. That’s still a dangerous impulse, and the best stories for me as a reader or a writer, and the truest stories, are the ones in which I don’t control them, but am tapped into the emotion more than the intellect. That said, I’m becoming comfortable enough with, I guess, theory, for lack of a better word, to be aware of it as I work. Structure, or any of those conscious things, as opposed to the infinitely more powerful subconscious.

SUMNER

You’ve stated that emotional truth informs the structures of your stories. Is emotion always central for you?

BASS

Yeah. To answer your second question, or to answer the question, yes, I mean if you—yes, there’s just no other answer but yes. But I’m not sure I understood the first thing you asked.

SUMNER

Well you’ve talked—

BASS

Or mentioned.

SUMNER

—about how emotional truth, that the emotion of the story that you’re writing develops the structure, kind of tells you where to go with it.

BASS

It can and usually does, and in the past it has for me, but what I’m interested in now, and maybe it’s almost out of boredom or something, but I don’t think that necessarily has to be true. You can have an emotional truth underlying a structural instability or a structural falsity, and a story could in theory be all the more powerful for that. It could enhance that emotional truth, but on the other hand to have a structurally sound and logical creation that has a false emotion, artificial emotion beneath a structure that might fit an emotion you’re trying to get, that wouldn’t work. So the answer to your question, yes yes yes, but again the obverse is not necessarily true. As long as the emotional truth is being felt by the narrator or the author you can have a good structure or a bad structure and you’re still going to have a story.

O’GRADY

Just before we sat down we were talking about your essay in Why I Write, “Why the Daily Writing of Fiction Matters.” In it you stress the importance of engagement with the world as well as with the world of the imagination in fiction. Is that balance between engagement and imagination an evolving process for you?

BASS

I want to say no, I want to say that it’s pretty much a fixed variable, a fixed rate, a constant, that I need a certain amount of x to yield a certain amount of y, and that’s what I believe. I don’t ever write about that. You would think—I would feel like that can’t be possibly true, because people change, everything changes in the course of its existence, but it seems constant to me. When I get enough physical activity, that yields intellectual and emotional growth for me or even an expansion of feeling. And when I’m not in the physical world the other aspects of me tend to shut down too. It’s just that simple. That’s all.

O’GRADY

Along those lines, something else that you mentioned in that same essay, have you been able to follow the advice you give, to be able to write every day and also to be in constant contact with the physical world in light of the other activities that you do?

BASS

That’s a trick question. Let me figure out how to get there. For the benefit of our reader, can you clarify that device of which you speak, of which we speak?

O’GRADY

In the essay you say specifically that you spend your mornings writing and then your afternoons walking.

BASS

Oh, yeah, yeah. No, because sometimes I tell stu—I thought you were talking about another advice, a device, so, good, you’re not, because I don’t follow that one, that other one. But I don’t follow this one either anymore. [With] the activism and family desires and obligations, I just make a choice every day. I’ve got to do what I want to do after writing and some days I don’t even write because of the other obligations of activism and so on. So no, I don’t, and that’s a real handicap. But everybody has handicaps. Some people have to work for a living. [laughter]

SUMNER

You’ve warned of our culture’s increasing corporatization and homogenization and how writing is a way to rage against the resulting constriction and entrapment. How does writing challenge sameness?

BASS

How does writing challenge what?

SUMNER

Sameness.

BASS

Well within writing, back to that notion I talked about [earlier], about literature being about loss or the recognition of loss, you’re also remaking the world. Either you’re celebrating the world the way it is, knowing that it’s not going to last that way, or you’re already actively re-creating an alternative world, an alternative logic, an alternative justice, alternative boundaries in the world. You’re putting on paper and presenting to the ‘true world’ or the ‘real world,’ the existing world or the present world. And that very act challenges sameness. You know, you’re putting your money where your mouth is, you’re investing the time of your life to put down this model, this blueprint, this plan of another world with other values, and giving craft time and attention to that work, just as surely—

Rick is interrupted by Jonathan Johnson, who comes outside with three beers.
Rick: Oh, I can’t, I wish I could!
Jonathan: You’ve been bested, eh? [laughter]

BASS

Writing doesn’t necessarily have to challenge sameness, I mean you could be a press flack for the Bush administration and just be fighting furiously to hold on to the status quo and pull the wool over voters’ eyes and say all is well in Bethlehem. So writing doesn’t necessarily have to challenge sameness, but, on the converse, it certainly can.

SUMNER

You’ve quoted before William Kittredge: “As we destroy what is natural we eat ourselves alive.” That’s quite different than what Bush’s press agents are writing. Your own writing seems to tend to something quite different than a Bush press agent.

BASS

I mean fiction, good fiction, has that quality of naturalness to it, in that it’s being its own thing, and you don’t even know what that thing is, you just know you have an emotion, you don’t know what story is going to come out of an emotion, you’re not trying to advance an agenda, you’re just trying to get an emotion out of the vessel of your body into the world, and that’s the only agenda at play in good fiction. That’s a pretty natural process, it’s an expulsion, and a procreation or a creation or perhaps a re-creation of an emotion in you, but it’s creative. So that is natural, it’s not a destructive or even really manipulative impulse, or exploitive. It’s pretty natural.

Nonfiction, on the other hand, can be a real challenge. You can have other less primary, less elemental goals or desires in the writing of nonfiction. You can have direct values that, by the nature of the medium, come into play. It doesn’t mean it’s less natural, and for that matter to say that to manipulate or exploit is unnatural is like a dog chasing its tail. That’s natural too but I don’t think of it as being as primary or elemental—that’s the raw emotion with the human filter. What I like to think of as really good fiction I think of as being more primal than that, not even having the human filter but just being the thing itself: the physical essence of joy or sorrow rather than the narrator or writer filtering that emotion into creative nonfiction.

SUMNER

In a book like Oil Notes you paint a picture without trying to change anyone’s mind. In other nonfiction books, like The Nine Mile Wolves, you’re trying to affect change. And then there’s your fiction, where you don’t know what’s going to happen.

BASS

That’s a fair gradation. For me there’s pure fiction, and then creative nonfiction which just has kind of an edge of me or the human condition. And then there’s the you-know-what-you-want-and-you’re-going-after- it kind of nonfiction which is more of the latter group, The Nine Mile Wolves or The Book of Yaak kind of book.

SUMNER

So are these different types of writing definitely separate for you?

BASS

It’s almost a question of level, how far into the subconscious I am. With fiction it’s not even a temptation to bring in an agenda or even me. You’re supposed to be in the characters and in the setting and that means you’re not in you, that means you’re certainly not in your politics. And in environmental advocacy work you’re so into the issue your art doesn’t get into it at all. I guess the creative nonfiction part of that triumvirate is where it can get interesting, where you can bring in some pure fiction for a while and then also attempt to bring in some hard core advocacy. That can be interesting. But that’s why it’s the middle ground for me. With fiction I’m not ever even tempted to get on a soapbox.

O’GRADY

You said before that writing and reading fiction can help writers and readers overcome natural and cultural boundaries.

BASS

I suppose it can. I don’t remember saying that.

O’GRADY

I’m paraphrasing of course. Do you think that as a country we look at fiction in that way, as a weapon against those tendencies?

BASS

I’ve never thought about it. Are you asking me how I think in this country we tend to look at fiction? This is going to be off the kettle, calling the stove black or however that saying goes, but I think in this country. There’s a tendency among too many to look at fiction as making a statement of politics or even personal values. I understand what a joke for [it is] me to say something like that, because my environmental advocacy is so fiercely partisan. It depends on the reader but I see a lot of people read fiction and try to filter it through a lens other than what I think the writer was intending, which was the human condition. A lot of readers will try to extrapolate from a piece of fiction into judgments and assumptions that don’t hold up. But it’s always been that way, and that’s a weakness but it can also be a strength of fiction, the fact that it can be mutable, that it’s a universal currency, that it can be a universal dialect in language. It should be, and yet the readings of so many books are slanted toward the times, the culture, this day and age. It’s a good question but I can’t answer it. Most readers are different.

SUMNER

If we could talk about your new collection The Hermit’s Story. Longing has played an important role in your fiction. Earlier work has often focused upon the rage of people as they try to get along in an uncooperative world. In the new collection we find characters such as Dave in “The Prisoners” and Kirby in “The Fireman,” divorced men who can see their daughters only rarely. Both Dave and Kirby have moved from rage towards a more deadened feeling. What interests you in their saddened, hardened emotional state?

BASS

I don’t know, I don’t know. What you said previously, about them moving toward detachment, may be what touches me about characters in those situations, that they’re moved toward survival and their acceptance of pain. Under one reading you could look at characters in those stories and say, “Well, they’re copping out, they’re detaching rather than embracing their pain,” but I don’t read those, or I don’t read “The Fireman” that way. [In] “The Prisoners” the characters have more of a subconscious detachment, they haven’t yet realized that they’re detaching to stay alive, but if you’re trying to stay alive then you’re trying to avoid foreclosing on the possibility of not being able to be sensate. So that is, if not heroic, it is still nonetheless, well it’s maybe not even dying but it’s not a full disengagement. You can detach in order to retain the ability to engage, and I mean that’s what, it’s just a diminution of ambitions, perhaps. Bittersweet would be the emotion there. And that’s an interesting conflict or interesting tension, interesting duality of emotions…[trails off]

Jonathan Johnson is approaching the table with three pies balanced on his arms.
Rick: Good god almighty!
Jonathan: One per each. Pumpkin cheesecake, turtle cheesecake, and pumpkin pie.
Brian: Umm, I’ll have some of the pumpkin pie. Rob: I’ll try that pumpkin cheesecake.
Rick: Ah…My God, that’s the hardest question. Johnson: He’s been rendered inarticulate by dessert. Rick: Yes, yes, all of it.
Johnson: All of the above, eh? Rick: Just the tiniest sliver.
Johnson: Of which? Rick: Of yes, of each. Johnson: Okay. I gotcha.
Rick: I mean, but you can imagine…pie.
Johnson: Pumpkin pie, pumpkin cheesecake, tiny sliver of each. Can somebody open the door?
Rick: Yes.

Rob: No more sun.
Rick: Yeah, never was much. Frosty. [eating] What are these little red things?
Brian: Those are pomegranate seeds.
Rick: Oh yeah?
Rob: Yeah, they were good.

SUMNER

Kind of tied into the longing, what we’ve just been talking about, memory in your work seems to work as a type of longing. Ann in “The Hermit’s Story” holds a memory of her trip to Canada “as tightly, and securely, as one might clench some bright small gem,” and Russell and Sissy in “The Cave” are hit by the realization that though their memory of the cave was bright and strong in that moment, “even an afternoon such as that one could become dust.” These are characters trying to hold on to what has already passed. In a way they reflect your stressing of fiction as a way of reconnecting what has been isolated.

BASS

Not to sound like a smart ass, but yes. I mean, I would agree. Certainly. I’m not conscious of those kinds of thoughts but that doesn’t make them any less true or even surprising to me that I wouldn’t have been able to explain them. A lot of people talk about memory as a kind of landscape, and that really interests me, that makes sense that, you know, you’re looking back, but . . .

Jennifer Davis comes outside with plates of pie. Jennifer: . . . cheesecake. [laughing] Sir.
Rob: Thank you. Brian: Thank you.
Jennifer: Here you go. [To Bass:] Yours is coming. Rob: Yours takes more time.
Rick: Bring the wheelbarrow!

BASS

But, in memory, you are obviously looking back at country that you traveled through, you are making a map, a map of that territory, but the way you say it was smarter. […] I mean, fiction is a device to preserve memory? Is that what you meant? Enrich memory?

SUMNER

To try to hold on to our own memories, or things that we’ve lost.

BASS

Hm. I suppose so. I mean again, literature is about loss or the recognition of loss, in celebrating or bringing the attention of art and craft to a story you are both celebrating and preserving something, for sure. You don’t think about presenting it to a future, but I think about presenting a story to the present, because it’s already in the past as you imagined it. There’s some movement across time and it’s almost kind of a resurrection, sure. Take something from the past and bring it all the way back up to the present, take it back to the contemporary moment, and that is an act of preservation.

My own memory is really bad, so I suspect that there’s something larger to that than what I’m grasping.

Rick: You guys are missing out. Rob: The turtle?
Rick: Yeah.
Rob: Yeah, I was eyeing that one. Pumpkin cheesecake. Maybe there will be some left for us when we’re done.

SUMNER

Now here’s another. Let’s talk about work. Artie in “The Prisoners” works in real estate and Kirby in “The Fireman” is a computer programmer. Both men find their jobs either numbing or irrelevant. They make money for their companies but find very little value in their work. So Artie goes fishing and Kirby volunteers as a firefighter, activities that working-class people do for a living. In the fishing and the firefighting there is an immediacy to the activities, a direct physical engagement with the world around them. What’s the relationship of work and passion in these stories and in your writing?

BASS

I don’t know. I don’t even know how to explain it, but work is what you do, that’s how you are—one of the ways—that you are in the world, to state the obvious, and almost everybody has to work. If you’re going to write a story about engagement with the world . . . Let me back up. I guess what it speaks to in part is what kind of story do you like as a reader and a writer, and the stories of the sad, dead weight, heart-dead, bittersweet, life-wasted stories of detachment and desensitization that are not infrequent in contemporary literature, while technically masterful and even emotionally masterful, after a while I get to feel, as a reader, cheated by the repetition of these subdued responses when the point of the story is your response to it. A little goes a long way, I get it! And that’s life, I get it! And so I like to personally look around for almost more elemental stories, where there’s a little less ambiguity. I don’t think that gives up anything in terms of sophistry, I don’t concede that at all in stories that really speak to me. If you’re interested in reading or writing a story about which a partly successful attempt at greater engagement with the world is achieved, it’s hard, a real trick to pull that off with a story about somebody who didn’t do something, as opposed to a story in which it was in somebody’s character to do something, and work is something to do, so it seemed hard to leave work out of some stories. But the wind is in your face if you’re going to write a story about somebody who’s going to feel the world deeply, but that person doesn’t feel deeply enough about the world to engage with it except when he or she is on the pages of your story. It seems artsy—it can run the risk of becoming artsy and artificial. There are, I’m sure, people who do not work who are fully engaged with their senses and the world, but the wind is in your face, in the writer’s face.

Rick coughs.
Rob: You doing all right?
Rick: I’m shoving pumpkin pie in my face. I’m doing all right. [pause] It’s my favorite.

O’GRADY

In “The Distance,” you have a Montana family visiting Monticello with the result that Thomas Jefferson, westward expansion, and the dynamics of one 21st-century family coalesce into a single story. Central to the story is the boundary between wilderness, or wildness, and control and our attempts to balance these elements. What motivated you to dig into the mistakes of America’s past?

BASS

Um, almost sounds like a smart-aleck answer, but—

O’GRADY

If you take issue with the question—

BASS

Well, not even so much as issue but again a lot of the questions you’re asking are so thoughtful, intelligent, that there’s a danger of them presuming an awareness on my part that that’s what I was aiming at, which was not the case. It doesn’t make it not true, I just didn’t know of some of the things that were going on there. The arc of this country at this point in time I find severely disappointing, and there’s not a day that goes by that I don’t fret about or rage about it. So that’s embedded in my subconscious, it’s embedded in my subconscious that it even comes up into my consciousness, but I don’t set out to write fiction to say those things. I just think, “What am I feeling?”, and then I start painting pictures and say, “This is what I’m feeling. This is what I see.”

So I would not argue with any of that, but it was not a conscious goal, because that would be a political assertion. It’s there, you’re right, but my first impulse was just trying to get the pictures accurate, that landscape, that point in time, that disparity between them. The Louisiana Purchase inhabitant in new-time versus the Louisiana Purchaser in old-time and the crisscrossing, it’s just a good structure, a good zone, good opportunity for conflict and richness.

Something about that story . . . Well, you asked, “What, what was the genesis for that dynamic?” I think what authorized me to tell a story like that, or enabled me to, is that living in the Yaak in the 21st century, we’re faced with the same choices on such a heartbreakingly smaller scale. The scale to Jefferson’s perception, then, was infinite. It wasn’t infinite, but he perceived it to be infinite, his culture perceived it to be infinite. And now, goddamn it, nobody perceives it to be infinite, we all understand how damned finite it is, we can measure down to the last foot how finite it is. There is 188,000 acres of roadless lands left in a million-acre landmass in the Yaak that’s still even eligible for wilderness designation, which is to say let these last 18.8 percent of the landmass go about its own natural processes, to burn or rot, grow old or die, grow young again at its own pace outside of our own manipulations. Not to cast value judgments even on our manipulations, just to say these last 18.8 percent of places in this incredibly wild valley we’re going to save, for no other reason than as a test case, scientific base of data, against which to measure our own future successes and failures. So living there is where that story came from about slavery and control, land and control and science and knowing everything or thinking you know everything. But I don’t think those things when I’m writing a story, I’m just realizing it now.

SUMNER

How’s the Yaak doing, Rick?

BASS

It’s in a tough way. It’s got a Republican White House, Republican Senate, Republican House of Representatives and they’ve had three years to stuff agencies and cabinets and committees with industry lobbyists and right-wing philosophers, and they’re not big fans of wilderness or wildness. They’re not big fans of much of anything of what I care for, so it’s about the worst I’ve ever seen it. We’re in the middle of a forest- planning initiative, so if I can make a request for people who read the interview to write letters I’ll send information on that.

SUMNER

That was our last question. Do you have a final thought?

BASS

Too many final thoughts.

SUMNER

They’re never final?

BASS

They’re all final.